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.357 vs .38 special

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tarzan1888

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PT111 wrote:
....I see some stats that say that in a snubby there is no difference between a .38 and a .357 and then comes alond someone showing no difference between a 2" and a 4" barrel. :what: .....
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There is a difference between all of the above. In .357 thatdifference is not great, in that there is no more difference between some manufactures with the same loadings as there is between say a 2 inch and a 4 inch barrel in same make of gun. I am sure that you could find a supped up .38 +p+p that approaches a very mild .357.

I am confident that a .357 snubby will perform better shooting .357 rounds at any loading as compared to .38 rounds at a similar loading.



Do you need .357's in a snubby? That is your choice.



.38's out of a snubby have been putting down bad guys for a very long time.



The bottom line, for me, is that size is not as important as what you do with it. :p



Tarzan
 
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tarzan1888

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Dustin wrote:
If your concern is Energy delivered, then just plug in the Speed and Grains of the round you plan on using.

The numbers don't lie - http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/energy.htm?bw=155&bv=1200
Click to expand...

I don't believe in "Energy delivered" in a hand gun rounds.

Energy doesn't wound. Velocity and mass equate to momentum which determines penetration and expansion, which make a permanent wound channel, which puts down the bad guy.

If you don't agree....I don't care. :celebrate



Tarzan
 
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Dustin

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tarzan1888 wrote:
Dustin wrote:
If your concern is Energy delivered, then just plug in the Speed and Grains of the round you plan on using.

The numbers don't lie - http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/energy.htm?bw=155&bv=1200
Click to expand...

I don't believe in "Energy delivered" in a hand gun rounds.

Energy doesn't wound. Velocity and mass equate to momentum which determines penetration and expansion, which make a permanent wound channel, which puts down the bad guy.

If you don't agree....I don't care. :celebrate



Tarzan
Click to expand...

Uh... What you just described is the result of energy :?

Velocity and mass equate to momentum which determines penetration and expansion - Energy

See ?
 
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tarzan1888

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Dustin wrote:
Uh... What you just described is the result of energy :?

Velocity and mass equate to momentum which determines penetration and expansion - Energy

See ?
Click to expand...

Energy is the ability to do work. The work we want done when we shoot at a bad guy is to make a hole in him...preferabily a big hole, and two holes are generally better than one.



The "Energy" I don't believe in is the mystical energy transfer that some how just by its being energy, turns the target into a quivering mass of jelly.

In a HP rifle round, the tissue of the target can be stretched beyond the elastic limit and so the high velocity can translate into a much larger wound channel than simply the hole made by the expanding bullet. This is real at rifle velocities....but not at handgun velocities.

When a bullet enters a target it uses up its energy, making a hole...or on a through and through two holes. The energy is used to do the work...not transfered into the target.



Tarzan
 
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Dustin

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tarzan1888 wrote:
In a HP rifle round, the tissue of the target can be stretched beyond the elastic limit and so the high velocity can translate into a much larger wound channel than simply the hole made by the expanding bullet. This is real at rifle velocities....but not at handgun velocities.

When a bullet enters a target it uses up its energy, making a hole...or on a through and through two holes. The energy is used to do the work...not transfered into the target.



Tarzan
Click to expand...

I find that very hard to just believe your word for it. :p

Energy can indeed kill without making a hole. I kill squirrels all the time with judo points from my PSE Bow. No puncture wound, yet they die on impact. This is death strictly by Kenetic Energy.

Faster Rounds usually due tend to deliver more energy, but not always. Ballistics are tricky.

I'm failing to see your point to the matter of not believing in the energy :uhoh:.
 
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Toymaker

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DreQo wrote:
If this has been discussed before, I apologize. The search function isn't functioning at the moment.

I've noticed quite a few people lately that carry a .38 special revolver. The first thing that always comes to my mind when someone says that is "Why not .357?". As far as I can tell, the only benefit that the .38 has over the .357 is felt recoil. I've shot both before, all though not extensively,and the .357 didn't feel unwieldy by any means. Is there some other benefit of the .38 special over the .357 that I am unaware of?
Click to expand...

Ihave a Scandium framed Smith & Wesson M&P 360 .357 Magnum and I shoot 125 gr. 38 Special Gold Dots in it. I could havegotten some other lightweight j-frame in 38+P only but Igotthis one instead because I like it. Durable black finish, 13.3 ounces, nice smooth double action trigger and tritium front sight with matching U-shaped rear notch.

The reason I shoot 38 Specials in it is because the recoil from the .357 Magnums in this light gun causes the trigger guard to slap the side of my trigger finger eventually leaving a blister.

I could probably mitigate this by installing a bigger grip but that wouldmake the gun biggerand besides, the 125 gr. Gold Dots are accurate, perform very well and allow faster follow ups. They'll do their part as long as I do mine.
 
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DocV

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With regards to the effectiveness of the .357 vs .45, there was a study on "one shot stop" effectiveness of various calibers some years ago (the author I believe was named Marshall).

Iirc, the study defined a one stop shot as one that ended the threat immediately but not necessarily resulting in death. It was a purely statistcal study utilizing data from various law enforcement agencies. Again, if I remember correctly, it was weighted to correct for the greater prevelance of revolvers at the time.

Anyway...the .357 125 gr. HP had something along the lines of a 97 or 98% stopping rate. The .45 cal 200 gr. HP was around 95-97%. The 158 gr .38 was around 70%.

DocV
 
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357luvr

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Just FYI - The S&W 340PD has the best power to weight ratio currently on the market. I've shot one enough to not want to shoot it again but they are suprisingly accurate.

Sorry if that has been said before. I didn't have time to read the whole thread.
 
Huck

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DreQo wrote:
deepdiver wrote:
tarzan1888 wrote:
I carry a .357 snubby and load it with .357 Magnum JHP's, and use .36's for practice.

Tarzan
Click to expand...
For when a .357 is too fast and a .38 is too big? :p
Click to expand...

LOL! Dang, beat me to it!
What guns are you considering?
Click to expand...
1911 .45, 1911 .40, AK-47, .357 snub, .454 or larger revolver, Walther PPS .40..

Oh wait, did you mean what .357 guns am I considering? :D At the moment I have absolutely NO clue what my next gun will be. I've never owned a revolver, but I keep finding myself drooling on the glass with the wheel guns behind them while I'm at the gun shop lol.

As far as brand, I'd probably lean towards a S&W as they've a good reputation and I personally like them. Their prices get a little steep, though. I wouldn't be disappointed with a Taurus, either. As far as model, the .357 would more than likely be a snub-nosed, possibly hammerless. She'd be mostly a concealed carry tool.
Click to expand...
Check out the Ruger GP-100 while you're at it. I have one with a 4 inch barrel andI love it! It shoots great with both .357 and .38.

I also have a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. You may want to rethink a .454, the recoil is insane! My hand felt like it'd been stomped onafter only six shots! Fortunatly, it also shoots .45 Long Colt, a excellent round. Does anyone want 54 free rounds of .454 Casull? :)
 
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Lykosis

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Here is an FBI report on wounding factors as determined by caliber. If you don't feel like reading it all, the conclusion is that bigger bullet with proper penetration = bigger wound channel = more damage = more likely to stop/kill.

http://www.seark.net/~jlove/handgun_wounding.htm

I like 1911s (prefer double stack models) and I am able to easily handle the kick of the round. All it comes down it is 'can you handle the recoil to effectively use your firearm of choice.' So, I carry a Para Warthog for CC or as a BUG, and a Para S14.45 in OC.

In the .357 vs. .38spl. debate, the .357 should penetrate more than a .38, which will have a greater chance of hitting vitals. Since the bullets are very close, if not the same, in size, wound channel will only matter in its depth, not in its diameter. Heck, if you're worries are about wound channel diameter and the mythical 'knock-down power' of a round, then get a .44 magnum (snubby or long barrel) and carry .44 spl. in it if you don't want to deal with the recoil.

As for which gun I would choose for OC in the OPs calibers, I would choose a Taurus 627 SS .357, commonly known as a Tracker. 7 rounds, 4" ported barrel, accurate as hell, and with enough weight to absorb some of the recoil. For CC, Taurus makes a hammerless .357 with 5 rounds.

As for what is the better round, .357 wins for me. If you can handle the .357, then it should win for you.
 
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Citizen

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DreQo wrote:
Citizen wrote:
DreQuo,

Check out the ballistics charts on the ammunition manufacturers websites. Just compare, say, .357mag.and 45 ACP.

I have conflicting data. Jeff Cooper, or someone citing him as a source, reported the .45 ACP as having the best record of one-shot stops on bad guys. Another source, Massad Ayoob I think, said the .357 mag.125 gr. hollow-point had the best record.
Click to expand...
I've noticed the same conflicts. It's DreQo, btw :).
Click to expand...

I suspect it has to do with dates. I'm guessing Jeff Cooper's info came out in the 1950's or 1960's. I'm guessing Ayoob's came out later, after the cartridge discussed had a longer period to accumulate track record.

There was a thread around here a little while back that had photos of ballistic gelatin blocks sitting side-by-side to compare wound cavities. The two cartridges we're discussing had remarkably similar wound cavities. If I recall, the .357 mag was just barelylarger than the .45 ACP. I imagine the difference is small enough that particular loadings will affect which does more damage.

At any rate,I'm thinking the recoil of .357 magnum in a snubbie is gonna hurt (less inclination to practice), and slow down your follow up shots unless you're shooting lightbullets in the 110-115 grain range.
 
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DreQo

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Huck wrote:
I also have a Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull. You may want to rethink a .454, the recoil is insane! My hand felt like it'd been stomped onafter only six shots! Fortunatly, it also shoots .45 Long Colt, a excellent round. Does anyone want 54 free rounds of .454 Casull? :)
Click to expand...

I'm looking at the S&W .460 revolver, since it shoots .460, .454 casull, and .45 LC. That piece would be a hunting/open carry gun. Supposedly the .454 and .460 rounds are very controllable in that gun, but I'm definitely going to shoot it before I buy it, lol.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=44954&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15707&isFirearm=Y
 
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tarzan1888

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Dustin wrote:
....Energy can indeed kill without making a hole. I kill squirrels all the time with judo points from my PSE Bow. No puncture wound, yet they die on impact. This is death strictly by Kenetic Energy.....
Click to expand...

Nice try....but energy is the ability to do work.

The work you did with your PSE Bow is called blunt force trama. :banghead:

Don't take my word for any thing. I really don't care.

Study yourself.

I share with you what I know.

Learn or don't, your choice.

Some believe those who understand science and some believe those who sell bullets.

I believe what I know. ;)

Tarzan
 
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tarzan1888

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Dustin wrote:
tarzan1888 wrote:
I share with you what I know.

Learn or don't, your choice.
Click to expand...



Well if that's your definition, than I'll stick with my own knowledge. You've yet to show me anything, except words on a screen. :uhoh:
Click to expand...

" Those who are not prepared to learn will not learn. As someone once said, "There is none so blind as him who will not see"



Jeff Cooper's Commentaries: Vol. 3, No. 14





Tarzan
 
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Dustin

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You should really get overyourself. How could you expect someone to believe you simply b/c you speak it ?

Then you point me towards Gods Word ?

Here's some of God's word you might have missed,

Proverbs 13:10
By pride comes nothing but strife, But with the well-advised is wisdom.

1 John 2:16
For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.
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I'm not asking for your own personal logic about energy, but if you want me to believe like you, than just speaking it, will not make it happen. I'm simply in search for your reasoning/evidence behind your claim about energy.



tarzan1888 wrote:
The work we want done when we shoot at a bad guy is to make a hole in him...preferabily a big hole, and two holes are generally better than one.
Click to expand...


You see my point is that I don't want to just be able to put holes in a BG. I want to "KNOCK THE PISS OUT OF HIM" as well as put a hole in him.

Eitherway you've lost my interest in the subject since it's now Off Topic.

Peace
 
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