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Thread: Obtaining a CCW to carry fully automatic

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    I am a Michigan Resident, and I am wondering about how to go about obtaining a license to carry a fully automatic pistol/sub-machine gun. The reason I am asking about how to go about this is because I am heading into the field of Protective Services (Bodyguard work), and also looking into Fugitive Bail Recovery as well. Just wondering if anyone else has this level of authority to carry one and how to go about it. I believe they called it a level 3 carry license?

    Thanks,
    -Chad of Battle Creek, MI

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    iChad wrote:
    I am a Michigan Resident, and I am wondering about how to go about obtaining a license to carry a fully automatic pistol/sub-machine gun. The reason I am asking about how to go about this is because I am heading into the field of Protective Services (Bodyguard work), and also looking into Fugitive Bail Recovery as well. Just wondering if anyone else has this level of authority to carry one and how to go about it. I believe they called it a level 3 carry license?

    Thanks,
    -Chad of Battle Creek, MI
    Never heard of a level 3 carry license. Sounds fishy to me.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Venator wrote:

    Never heard of a level 3 carry license. Sounds fishy to me.
    I was thinking the same thing. Never heard of it. And just out of curiousity, what in the hell will you be securing?!?!?

    Welcome to OCDO. Please add your location to your profile.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    To be honest, I fail to understand how either of those jobs (wherein a firearm plays the role of self-defense) necessitates, creates advantage in, justifies, or even allows carry of an automatic weapon.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    marshaul wrote:
    To be honest, I fail to understand how either of those jobs (wherein a firearm plays the role of self-defense) necessitates, creates advantage in, justifies, or even allows carry of an automatic weapon.
    Good point. I believe thats where an answer to my previously posted question "what the hell are you securing?" Would be handy.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    I did not read anything in my CPL that mentioned what kind of pistol I could carry.
    single shot, revolver, semiautomatic, full auto. Looks like if you legally own it you can carry it.

    Just my read on the topic
    The use of force is a last resort. One aspect of violence is that it is unpredictable. Although your initial intention may be to use limited force, once you have engaged in violence the consequences are unpredictable. Violence always brings about unexpected results and almost always provokes retaliation.

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    LaVere wrote:
    I did not read anything in my CPL that mentioned what kind of pistol I could carry.
    single shot, revolver, semiautomatic, full auto. Looks like if you legally own it you can carry it.

    Just my read on the topic
    .

    As much as I hate common sense, this is probably the correct answer. If you can legally possess it (handgun) and have a CPL you can conceal it. Or OC without a CPL

    Why I don't trust common sense:

    If you didn't know anything other then what you have seen in your experience, that is no special knowledge, and were presented with a picture of a T-Rex and a unicorn, and were told that one of these DID exist and one is made up, and you had to pick the one that did exist, which one would common sense pick????


    On common sense: Randy Wayne White wrote in his novel Captiva [/i]“It is a character standard from folklore in which “good old common sense” is an essential bedrock ingredient. But too often “common sense” is a safe harbor of ignorance and an excuse for intellectual laziness. They don’t need the facts because they already know the truth—their common sense has spared them the effort of investigation or thought.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    iChad wrote:
    I am a Michigan Resident, and I am wondering about how to go about obtaining a license to carry a fully automatic pistol/sub-machine gun. The reason I am asking about how to go about this is because I am heading into the field of Protective Services (Bodyguard work), and also looking into Fugitive Bail Recovery as well. Just wondering if anyone else has this level of authority to carry one and how to go about it. I believe they called it a level 3 carry license?

    Thanks,
    -Chad of Battle Creek, MI
    The Class 3 reference refers to federal law. National Firearms Act (NFA) weapons often referred to as "class 3" after the license needed to deal in them. Machine guns are very heavily regulated. I'm not a Class 3 dealer so I am not an expert in this area, but in general:

    1) Only weapons in the NFA registry (that's right, registration!) before a date in 1986 are transferable to non-military/law enforcement. Those are grandfathered.

    2) Because of the closed in supply, they are very expensive. Anywhere from 3 or 4 thousand for a little .380 to $30,000 or more fororiginal Tommy guns.

    3) Many states have additional restrictions, including outright bans, on full auto weapons.

    4) You have to pay a $200 federal transfer tax when you take possession and you have to keep the tax stamp with the weapon.

    5) Your local chief LEO (sheriff, city police chief, etc.) HAS to sign off before BATFE will authorize the transfer! Yep, "the man" has to sign off on it. Some will, many will not. Yes, there are ways around this but in general this is required.

    6) If the weapon is suppressed, the supressor is a separate NFA item and likewise incurs the tax, paperwork, etc.

    7) If you buy it from out of state, you have to have it transfered from a Class 3 FFL in the current state to a Class 3 FFL in your state. You will pay the fees to them for this service (this is not a tax, just paying the middle men).

    8) You have to submit fingerprints and other background info to the federal government over and above the standard firearms transfer form. I am not sure what the standard of review is so anything less than snow white may be denied.

    Beyond all that, the controllability of a sub gun at full auto (rather than semi or burst) could be an issue. Without a doubt if you ever used that weapon you WILL receive a high-intensity investigation due to the gangster past and built-up nefarious image of "machine guns". In a civil suit you would be at a great disadvantage trying to explain the members of the general public sitting on your jury just why an evil machine gun was needed when few people beside SWAT and military personnel actually carry them with any frequency.

    My opinion -- don't do it. They are cool for collectors and fun at the machine gun rental when you can crank through $100 in ammo in a couple of minutes, but there are too many practical disadvantage in the real world. If it is scare factor you want, there are Uzi-look alike semi's that have the sub gun look without any of the hassle described above.

    SA-TX



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    One thing that nobody has brought up......

    There are no class 3 pistols....they're all MACHINE GUNS!

    As an example, here in Alabama SBRs and SBSs are illegal to own...period...but MGs are allowed so long as they are registered etc. Now, if I were to buy a legal M16 that happened to have a 14" barrel (which would be under the legal limit for a non-mg), I would still be within the law since the M16 is a MG and not an SBR....it can't be both.
    I don't think there is a state that will allow concealed carry of an MG on ones person.
    That said, I also think that carrying a legally owned class 3 weapon is no different than carrying any other weapon....ie, no special permit to transport to the local range etc.

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    As far as I know, Michigan law simply treats pistol sized NFA weapons the same as other pistols. In addition to NFA registration, they must be safety inspected. Common sense DOES dictate that means a CPL will let you carry them concealed.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    As far as I know, Michigan law simply treats pistol sized NFA weapons the same as other pistols. In addition to NFA registration, they must be safety inspected. Common sense DOES dictate that means a CPL will let you carry them concealed.
    States laws can be more restrictive than federal but cannot be less restrictive.
    How can something be a pistol in Michigan that is a MG by federal statute?

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    The pistol registration in addition to the NFA rules, not instead of.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    The pistol registration in addition to the NFA rules, not instead of.
    And just how do you go about registering a MG as a pistol when it is NOT a pistol?
    Please read your states definitions...I think you will find that a pistol has it's own definition completely seperate from the definition of an MG.....it's either or, one can't be both.

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    Last time I read the MSP FAQ section, it said what I am saying. Pistol diameter full auto's had to be registered. Could they have been wrong? Maybe, but it's the MSP, so I doubt it.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Michigander wrote:
    Last time I read the MSP FAQ section, it said what I am saying. Pistol diameter full auto's had to be registered. Could they have been wrong? Maybe, but it's the MSP, so I doubt it.
    Please cite....statutes preferably.....remember, MSP doesn't write the laws....

    Under Michigan law, I can actually see someone being prosecuted (with the "right" judge) for even owning a BATFE registered MG.....as the law is written, it would seem to state that a LICENSE is required from the feds...not just a tax stamp.


    Possession of a machine gun by a person in Michigan is controlled by section 224 of the Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.224:

    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

    (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

    * * *

    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A self-defense spray device as defined in section 224d.

    (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.

    (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection.....




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    Comp-tech wrote:
    One thing that nobody has brought up......

    There are no class 3 pistols....they're all MACHINE GUNS!

    As an example, here in Alabama SBRs and SBSs are illegal to own...period...but MGs are allowed so long as they are registered etc. Now, if I were to buy a legal M16 that happened to have a 14" barrel (which would be under the legal limit for a non-mg), I would still be within the law since the M16 is a MG and not an SBR....it can't be both.
    I don't think there is a state that will allow concealed carry of an MG on ones person.
    That said, I also think that carrying a legally owned class 3 weapon is no different than carrying any other weapon....ie, no special permit to transport to the local range etc.
    IF you where to think can you say Vermont ???????????

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    One thing that nobody has brought up......

    There are no class 3 pistols....they're all MACHINE GUNS!
    The Glock 18 in nearly every respect looks like a Glock 17, but it is a fully-automatic submachine gun. That being said, no civilians can own one because they're not transferrable, i.e., they were made after the 1986 ban went into effect.



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    First off, I'd like to take the time to thank everyone who has responded to my question. SA-TX your information was very helpful, as was Comp-Tech's. And to OC-Glock19, yes I have known about the Glock-18s for a long time, just surprised how many don't know about them.

    To those wondering who I'll be "securing" it will range from A-List celebrities, Politicians, CEO's, High Paid Execs, and anyone who has to believe they are under some sort of harm, aim, or assassination plot. And to Marshaul, most "bodyguards" who secure high risk clients usually do carry fully-automatic weapons. This job I will be obtaining in the summer of '09 will not only keep me Stateside, it will also bring me over seas to foreign countries who are our allies, and to some who are not and most likely placed in "hostile" territories.



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    Oh yeah, and Marshaul, also to add to the point of carrying a firearm, just recently down in Florida, every agency in the field of Fugitive Bail Recover are now requiring every agent to had a sidearm. If you didn't hear the first ever Agent died earlier last year and almost every agent in Florida showed up to his funeral to honor him. There was a lot of press there, and the employers of these agencies said that it is sad of this event because now they are going to have to require their teams to not only wear body armor, but carry sidearms as well. It is a cruel world, and some people have to protect themselves and others to keep them safe.

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    Comp-tech wrote:
    Please cite....statutes preferably.....remember, MSP doesn't write the laws....

    Under Michigan law, I can actually see someone being prosecuted (with the "right" judge) for even owning a BATFE registered MG.....as the law is written, it would seem to state that a LICENSE is required from the feds...not just a tax stamp.


    Possession of a machine gun by a person in Michigan is controlled by section 224 of the Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.224:

    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

    (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

    * * *

    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A self-defense spray device as defined in section 224d.

    (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.

    (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection.....


    The BATFE is/was a branch of the federal Treasury department at the time the law was written, however, I think they now are a part of Homeland Security
    Rand Paul 2016

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    OC-Glock19 wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    One thing that nobody has brought up......

    There are no class 3 pistols....they're all MACHINE GUNS!
    The Glock 18 in nearly every respect looks like a Glock 17, but it is a fully-automatic submachine gun. That being said, no civilians can own one because they're not transferrable, i.e., they were made after the 1986 ban went into effect.

    And THAT is how it would be registered with the BATFE...not as a pistol...that was my point.

    And this fact makes mention of th G18 a moot ponit does it not?


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    taxwhat wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    One thing that nobody has brought up......

    There are no class 3 pistols....they're all MACHINE GUNS!

    As an example, here in Alabama SBRs and SBSs are illegal to own...period...but MGs are allowed so long as they are registered etc. Now, if I were to buy a legal M16 that happened to have a 14" barrel (which would be under the legal limit for a non-mg), I would still be within the law since the M16 is a MG and not an SBR....it can't be both.
    I don't think there is a state that will allow concealed carry of an MG on ones person.
    That said, I also think that carrying a legally owned class 3 weapon is no different than carrying any other weapon....ie, no special permit to transport to the local range etc.
    IF you where to think can you say Vermont ???????????
    I stand corrected.......but, this IS a discussion on Michigan law, is it not?

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    Yooper wrote:
    Comp-tech wrote:
    Please cite....statutes preferably.....remember, MSP doesn't write the laws....

    Under Michigan law, I can actually see someone being prosecuted (with the "right" judge) for even owning a BATFE registered MG.....as the law is written, it would seem to state that a LICENSE is required from the feds...not just a tax stamp.


    Possession of a machine gun by a person in Michigan is controlled by section 224 of the Michigan Penal Code, MCL 750.224:

    (1) A person shall not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, or possess any of the following:

    (a) A machine gun or firearm that shoots or is designed to shoot automatically more than 1 shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

    * * *

    (3) Subsection (1) does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A self-defense spray device as defined in section 224d.

    (b) A person manufacturing firearms, explosives, or munitions of war by virtue of a contract with a department of the government of the United States.

    (c) A person licensed by the secretary of the treasury of the United States or the secretary's delegate to manufacture, sell, or possess a machine gun, or a device, weapon, cartridge, container, or contrivance described in subsection.....


    The BATFE is/was a branch of the federal Treasury department at the time the law was written, however, I think they now are a part of Homeland Security
    My point was concerning the word LICENSE in the statute.....in a normal class 3 transfer, a tax stamp is issued...not a license.
    Each individual class 3 item must be registered and have it's own tax stamp issued for legal ownership. To get a class 3 LICENSE, one must obtain an FFL and pay an SOT of several thousand dollars.

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    Did miss something?

    Are you ex-special force, retired rangers? Ex CIA OP?

    I don't mean to be a jerk here but anyone who is getting into the private security field who wants to know HOW they can legally carry a machine gun for the job, probably should consider a different field of work.

    If you work for a company that does private security work, they will already know how to take care of stuff like this.

    People who just wake up one day and decide they want to be a security guard and carry a gun, simply don't get full autos.

    Join the military, becoming a Ranger, SEAL, Special Forces, etc, Join the CIA, whatever. Then retire, then get a private security job.

    Giving a full auto weapon to a private security op is a huge company liability. You don't just get a permit for it and get a job where you can use and carry a full auto.

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    First, I am going to call BS on you.



    Secondly, I wish I knew where it was but there is a story on one of these forums about a guy that worked for ruger and had a prototype machine gun he was testing in his vehicle. He ended up being chased by two doped up guys and had to shoot and kill one of them. Because it was fully automatic he went through hell and back.

    Fully automatic would be useless in your situation anyway, your going to spray and pray around a bunch of people? You HAVE GOT to be kidding me.

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