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Thread: I know that I'll get flamed, but Open Carry is sometimes WRONG!

  1. #1
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    First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. In fact, it ELEVATES the need to act responsibly.

    Now, what set me off. What set me off was the overwhelming support for knuckheads who have behaved in an irresponsible and foolish manner that any thinking person would abhore.

    Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html

    Here we have a 21 year old male who decided it would be "cool" to take a gun to a public celebration in a tourist community. Because Grand Haven has a crime rate that is mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior, there was a minimal chance that he would have any need for a gun, he took it in order to impress the "ladies" Basically, he was thinking with the head in his trousers which is far too typical for a 21 year old male. I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases. Behavior like this just builds support for the opponents of Open Carry and if enough people get offended by behavior like this, the Law will be changed.

    Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html

    This just astounds me. What thinking person would go to a Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed? The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". I have no doubt that as soon as he was spotted by Security he had a Sniper Scope targeting his "10 ring". Had he even placed his hand on the butt of his gun, he probably would have been dropped without hesitation. I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.

    Now, go ahead and start the flaming. Just keep in mind that for evey 100 people who support this type of foolishness, there are 1000 people who will use examples of this type of poor judgement as an argument to ban all handguns.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Don't get suckered into feeding thistroll, folks. If you ignore him, he'll dry up and blow away.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner.
    ...

    Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html
    ...I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases.

    Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html
    ...The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". ... I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.
    No flames here, but consider, please, my response to your post.

    As for your first comment about responsible behavior, I agree.

    With respect to Case One, you indicate your opinion that the gentleman exercised bad judgement in carrying. While you are welcome to your opinion, do you not think that he is entitled to his as well? If you were this person's father you would talk to the police in order to infringe on his rights? You don't care that his activities were legal? Think about that for a minute.

    Case Two: The US Secret Service has no "License to Kill." There is no such thing in the United States of America. Again, your opinion is that it was stupid to carry. Again, you're welcome to that opinion, but it is not the only reasonable opinion.

    Best,
    AR

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. In fact, it ELEVATES the need to act responsibly.

    Now, what set me off. What set me off was the overwhelming support for knuckheads who have behaved in an irresponsible and foolish manner that any thinking person would abhore.

    Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html

    Here we have a 21 year old male who decided it would be "cool" to take a gun to a public celebration in a tourist community. Because Grand Haven has a crime rate that is mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior, there was a minimal chance that he would have any need for a gun, he took it in order to impress the "ladies" Basically, he was thinking with the head in his trousers which is far too typical for a 21 year old male. I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases. Behavior like this just builds support for the opponents of Open Carry and if enough people get offended by behavior like this, the Law will be changed.

    Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html

    This just astounds me. What thinking person would go to a Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed? The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". I have no doubt that as soon as he was spotted by Security he had a Sniper Scope targeting his "10 ring". Had he even placed his hand on the butt of his gun, he probably would have been dropped without hesitation. I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.

    Now, go ahead and start the flaming. Just keep in mind that for evey 100 people who support this type of foolishness, there are 1000 people who will use examples of this type of poor judgement as an argument to ban all handguns.
    Hi and welcome your opinion duly noted

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right
    And the men here were responsible, legally open carrying in a holster as they went about their business - that is what the open carry movement is all about. As for the 18 year old, he could only open carry as the concealed permit is not yet available to him.

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    In your first example about Chris Fetters, did you know that he is married with a child and also active military? So how was he impressing the "ladies"?

    If Grand Haven is so safe, why do the police carry firearms there?

    If the "public celebration in a tourist community" was so safe why the need to have not only local LEO's but also County and State LEO's.

    Bad people are everywhere, protect yourself!

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    Well, you all know what they say about opinions....

    Carrying a firearm, legaly, is never "wrong".

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    Don't get suckered into feeding thistroll, folks. If you ignore him, he'll dry up and blow away.
    I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.

    He seems to just be using different criteria to judge the events he cites.

    Maybe I'm wrong. But why not try introducing him to the additional information?

    He seems concerned 2A will be restricted more because of what heconsiders irresponsible OC. OK. Give him the rest of the picture so he can see it isn't as irresponsible as his first impression.

    Just assume he's a good guy and help him out by filling in the rest of the pieces of the picture that all of us have had time to consider and reconsider over time.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.
    No, he'satroll. No one is soastronomically ignorant as to read the news and information on the two incidents he talks about and sincerely spout the bull$h!t he does.

    He's wiggling the bait and looking to see what bites.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    DanM wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.
    No, he'satroll. No one is soastronomically ignorant as to read the news and information on the two incidents he talks about and sincerely spout the bull$h!t he does.

    He's wiggling the bait and looking to see what bites.
    Yup.

    Makes about as much sense as a Brady Bunch Candidate.

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    You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan. However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule. Don't ever forget that. If enough knuckleheads abuse that privilegeto the pointthat the general public demands the revocation of the Open Carry privilege it will be revoked as fast as the state Constitution can be amended. If you don't think it can happen, just look to New York, Texas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Arkansas, S. Carolina, and Florida.

    I also have some issues with the current status of Michigan's Open Carry policy. Specifically, the only requirement is that the individual meet the Standard of Purchase for a handgun. Which means that any nut with a gun can carry. No range training, a very limited exposure to when the use of force is appropriate and legal, and no give and take with a certified firearms trainer in regards as to how to respond to a confrontation without it escalating to the use of a handgun.

    There is also the fact that I could not find one single reference in the Law in regards to Open Carry while intoxicated. Which means that it's probably perfectly legal to Carry Openly while falling down drunk. At least with a CCW permit it's stated quite specifically that you may not Carry when having a blood alcohol content of more than 0.02, which is damn near stone sober.

    Call me a CCW snob if you wish, but I think that in order to even own a handgun you should be able to meet some minimum standard of capability and be well educated in it's proper use.

    Now, in regards to that idiot who took a handgun to a Presidential rally and carried it openly. Thirty eight years ago at the tender age of 16 we had a scheduled motorcade for Richard Nixon pass through a neighboring town. So, a good friend and myself decided to pack up our cameras and go get some pictures. When we got there, we scouted aroung and decided that a railroad overpass would make for a great camera angle. About 1/2 minute after wwe got on the bridge and got about 8 feet from the rail we heard the command "Do not move". At each end of the over pass were 2 Secret Service Agents, each onearmed with M16 rifles. Let me tell you, having 4, M16's aimed straight at you WILL get your attention. It will also burn that memory into your memory forever. After confirming out identity and inspecting the pistol grip I had mounted to my 400m lens they let us go. However, I learned one very strong lesson from that. That is that the Secret Service bodyguard detail in the MOST no nonsense agency in law enforcement and you do NOT want to violate security protocol. You get on the ground and take exactly the same pictures as everyone else present. I can also tell you that the agents that you have to worry about most are not the ones you can see, it's the ones you can't see that you have to worry about, they'll have a bead on your "10 ring" and they'll beaiming a weaponwith a set trigger that breaks at about 2 lbs.. Think about that next time you consider going to a Presidential event with a handgun.

    So, go out and pass out all the flyers you want at a Rally. Heck, take a picture of your S & W 500 Magnum and see if you can get Sarah Palin's autograph on it. Just don't take the gun with you because it's a really really bad idea.





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    Actually, scooter, we do get your point. We just see how poorly researched it is.

    Everywhere that OC has been making a comback, gun rights have INCREASED.. not decreased.
    Probably because OC'ers bring many issues to light that CC'ers have ignored or taken and then been quit about since they felt lucky to get away with whatever they got.

    Anywy..

    Again, OC has done the opposite of what your concerned about. Take a while and research before condeming based on your presumptions.



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    Scooter123 wrote:
    case 1

    mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior,
    case 2
    Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed?
    Case 1: Are you saying that Assault and Drunkeness are not all that dangerous/serious?

    case 2: The rights of a presidential candidate do not trump the rights of the average citizen.

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    everyone has there own opinion.me yes i would of not oc to see a possible president.gh i hope he gets a lot of money but everyone has there own thoughts.

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    Scooter123 wrote:

    You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan.
    Huh? Open carry a privilege? Did you read Heller? carry is the right, but not concealed carry.

    So, . . . what;s left? Open Carry!

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    Are you suggesting that folks stop exercising their rights so that they won't get their rights taken away?

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    Scooter123 wrote:

    You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan. However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule. Don't ever forget that.
    Had to stop right there, as the OP apparently has not even researched enough to understand the fundamental differences between rights and privileges.

    (BTW, I though we were ruled by laws, not "numbers.")

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule.
    No on all counts.

    We do not live in a democratic society because we are not all equal, we never have been and never will be.

    In a democratic society fools rule and fools are innumerate and illiterate.

    Only when the people are held to to the lowest common denominator will an egalitarian society be realized.

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    Scooter123 wrote:
    ...The Privilege to carry openly...the Open Carry privilege...any nut with a gun can carry...it's probably perfectly legal to Carry Openly while falling down drunk...in regards to that idiot...take a picture of your S & W 500 Magnum and see if you can get Sarah Palin's autograph on it.


    Wiggle, wiggle. The bait wiggles, but I'm not biting.

    Troll, go back under the bridge from whence you came.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Case one: I would have carried there also if I did not see a no weapons posting. Sir there is no place that is free from crime not even a church. Yes he did need his gun there.

    Case two: I do not think the guy was in the same place of the rally but close to it.But with that being said, I would not carry there myself, and when I read that story I said the same thing to myselfSTUPID STUPID STUPID. But even with that said, he did not do anything wrong, and he has a right to carry there. I went to a place full of kids with my family, I felt the need to CC there being around all the kids. I try to be wise with my OC.

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    mzbk2l wrote:
    Had to stop right there, as the OP apparently has not even researched enough to understand the fundamental differences between rights and privileges.

    (BTW, I though we were ruled by laws, not "numbers.")
    But enough numbers opposing some law can get the law changed. Example; A repeal of the law to allow alcohol on Sunday in a town near Lake Michigan (sorry I can not remember which one). "Numbers" on petitions will get it on the ballot and "numbers" in the voting booth will either keep the law as is or change the law. The same can be done with OC if enough people get upset and try to change it. I do not have a problem with OC. Some day I hope I have the time and nerve to try it. However I do agree with the OP that discretion needs to be practiced.

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    DanM wrote:
    Troll, go back under the bridge from whence you came.
    Troll? No. Just a person who has expressed his opinion. In fact, he could call you a troll because of your onion. No reason to call a person names because they do not agree with you. I exercise my RIGHT to carry as I choose. Am I a Troll because I exercise my RIGHT to choose to CC?
    How about less name calling and more toleration for other peoples opinions and ideas.

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    Alwayspacking wrote:
    I went to a place full of kids with my family, I felt the need to CC there being around all the kids. I try to be wise with my OC.
    Why, specifically, is CC required around kids?
    I OC around kids all the time. Never a problem. Am I "unwise"?
    Please back up your claims.


    Sailorwatson wrote:
    ..The same can be done with OC if enough people get upset and try to change it. .
    But yet it doesn't. Theories are great, but this one is over used and never materializes...


    Sailorwatson wrote:
    Troll? No. Just a person who has expressed his opinion. In fact, he could call you a troll because of your onion. No reason to call a person names because they do not agree with you. I exercise my RIGHT to carry as I choose. Am I a Troll because I exercise my RIGHT to choose to CC?
    How about less name calling and more toleration for other peoples opinions and ideas.
    No, no one has ever told you not to CC here. No one has ever said you were stupid for CC'ing

    He's a troll because he comes on a OC website and attempts to tell us how to carry, rather than letting us choose.



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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    Alwayspacking wrote:
    I went to a place full of kids with my family, I felt the need to CC there being around all the kids. I try to be wise with my OC.
    Why, specifically, is CC required around kids?
    I OC around kids all the time. Never a problem. Am I "unwise"?
    Please back up your claims.

    He said "I felt the need..." If he feels more comfortable CCing around kids, then he doesn't have to back up anything.

    Now, on the other hand, I don't know why you would need to CC around kids. I take my daughter to the park in (with TONS of kids running around) and I OC. Never had a problem, just a couple of looks from a guy dressed in an NYPD hat, shirt, and tattoo

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    SQLtables wrote:
    He said "I felt the need..." If he feels more comfortable CCing around kids, then he doesn't have to back up anything.
    He said he felt the need, because there were kids. I asked WHY?

    He then said that he tries to be "wise" about OC. I asked if I am unwise and for him to back up that statement.



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