• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

I know that I'll get flamed, but Open Carry is sometimes WRONG!

Scooter123

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
63
Location
Macomb, Michigan, USA
imported post

First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. In fact, it ELEVATES the need to act responsibly.

Now, what set me off. What set me off was the overwhelming support for knuckheads who have behaved in an irresponsible and foolish manner that any thinking person would abhore.

Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html

Here we have a 21 year old male who decided it would be "cool" to take a gun to a public celebration in a tourist community. Because Grand Haven has a crime rate that is mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior, there was a minimal chance that he would have any need for a gun, he took it in order to impress the "ladies" Basically, he was thinking with the head in his trousers which is far too typical for a 21 year old male. I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases. Behavior like this just builds support for the opponents of Open Carry and if enough people get offended by behavior like this, the Law will be changed.

Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html

This just astounds me. What thinking person would go to a Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed? The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". I have no doubt that as soon as he was spotted by Security he had a Sniper Scope targeting his "10 ring". Had he even placed his hand on the butt of his gun, he probably would have been dropped without hesitation. I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.

Now, go ahead and start the flaming. Just keep in mind that for evey 100 people who support this type of foolishness, there are 1000 people who will use examples of this type of poor judgement as an argument to ban all handguns.
 

American Rattlesnake

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
281
Location
Oregon, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner.
...

Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html
...I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases.

Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html
...The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". ... I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.
No flames here, but consider, please, my response to your post.

As for your first comment about responsible behavior, I agree.

With respect to Case One, you indicate your opinion that the gentleman exercised bad judgement in carrying. While you are welcome to your opinion, do you not think that he is entitled to his as well? If you were this person's father you would talk to the police in order to infringe on his rights? You don't care that his activities were legal? Think about that for a minute.

Case Two: The US Secret Service has no "License to Kill." There is no such thing in the United States of America. Again, your opinion is that it was stupid to carry. Again, you're welcome to that opinion, but it is not the only reasonable opinion.

Best,
AR
 

taxwhat

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2008
Messages
800
Location
S E Michgan all mine, Michigan, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right. It does NOT absolve us of the need to act in a reasonable and thoughtful manner. In fact, it ELEVATES the need to act responsibly.

Now, what set me off. What set me off was the overwhelming support for knuckheads who have behaved in an irresponsible and foolish manner that any thinking person would abhore.

Case One. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/14615.html

Here we have a 21 year old male who decided it would be "cool" to take a gun to a public celebration in a tourist community. Because Grand Haven has a crime rate that is mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior, there was a minimal chance that he would have any need for a gun, he took it in order to impress the "ladies" Basically, he was thinking with the head in his trousers which is far too typical for a 21 year old male. I don't care if it was legal or not, it was BAD JUDGEMENT to carry at that event and he should be chastized for making a very poor decision. If I were this persons father I would lock his guns up in a safe until he was at least 30 and also have a talk with the local police asking them to block any additional purchases. Behavior like this just builds support for the opponents of Open Carry and if enough people get offended by behavior like this, the Law will be changed.

Case Two. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/15633.html

This just astounds me. What thinking person would go to a Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed? The US Secret Service is probably the ONLY Law Enforcement entity in this country with what could be considered a "License to Kill". I have no doubt that as soon as he was spotted by Security he had a Sniper Scope targeting his "10 ring". Had he even placed his hand on the butt of his gun, he probably would have been dropped without hesitation. I have no issue at all with him wanting to pass out flyers, I just think that carrying a gun to an event like this is STUPID STUPID STUPID.

Now, go ahead and start the flaming. Just keep in mind that for evey 100 people who support this type of foolishness, there are 1000 people who will use examples of this type of poor judgement as an argument to ban all handguns.
Hi and welcome your opinion duly noted
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
First off, I happen to think that the 2nd ammendment places a burden of responsible behavior on anyone who wishes to excercize that right
And the men here were responsible, legally open carrying in a holster as they went about their business - that is what the open carry movement is all about. As for the 18 year old, he could only open carry as the concealed permit is not yet available to him.
 

dougwg

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2007
Messages
2,443
Location
MOC Charter Member Westland, Michigan, USA
imported post

In your first example about Chris Fetters, did you know that he is married with a child and also active military? So how was he impressing the "ladies"?

If Grand Haven is so safe, why do the police carry firearms there?

If the "public celebration in a tourist community" was so safe why the need to have not only local LEO's but also County and State LEO's.

Bad people are everywhere, protect yourself!
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Don't get suckered into feeding thistroll, folks. If you ignore him, he'll dry up and blow away.
I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.

He seems to just be using different criteria to judge the events he cites.

Maybe I'm wrong. But why not try introducing him to the additional information?

He seems concerned 2A will be restricted more because of what heconsiders irresponsible OC. OK. Give him the rest of the picture so he can see it isn't as irresponsible as his first impression.

Just assume he's a good guy and help him out by filling in the rest of the pieces of the picture that all of us have had time to consider and reconsider over time.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
imported post

Citizen wrote:
I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.

No, he'satroll. No one is soastronomically ignorant as to read the news and information on the two incidents he talks about and sincerely spout the bull$h!t he does.

He's wiggling the bait and looking to see what bites.
 

ghostrider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2007
Messages
1,416
Location
Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA
imported post

DanM wrote:
Citizen wrote:
I'm not sure I agree he is clearly a troll.

No, he'satroll. No one is soastronomically ignorant as to read the news and information on the two incidents he talks about and sincerely spout the bull$h!t he does.

He's wiggling the bait and looking to see what bites.
Yup.

Makes about as much sense as a Brady Bunch Candidate.
 

Scooter123

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2008
Messages
63
Location
Macomb, Michigan, USA
imported post


You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan. However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule. Don't ever forget that. If enough knuckleheads abuse that privilegeto the pointthat the general public demands the revocation of the Open Carry privilege it will be revoked as fast as the state Constitution can be amended. If you don't think it can happen, just look to New York, Texas, Oklahoma, Illinois, Arkansas, S. Carolina, and Florida.

I also have some issues with the current status of Michigan's Open Carry policy. Specifically, the only requirement is that the individual meet the Standard of Purchase for a handgun. Which means that any nut with a gun can carry. No range training, a very limited exposure to when the use of force is appropriate and legal, and no give and take with a certified firearms trainer in regards as to how to respond to a confrontation without it escalating to the use of a handgun.

There is also the fact that I could not find one single reference in the Law in regards to Open Carry while intoxicated. Which means that it's probably perfectly legal to Carry Openly while falling down drunk. At least with a CCW permit it's stated quite specifically that you may not Carry when having a blood alcohol content of more than 0.02, which is damn near stone sober.

Call me a CCW snob if you wish, but I think that in order to even own a handgun you should be able to meet some minimum standard of capability and be well educated in it's proper use.

Now, in regards to that idiot who took a handgun to a Presidential rally and carried it openly. Thirty eight years ago at the tender age of 16 we had a scheduled motorcade for Richard Nixon pass through a neighboring town. So, a good friend and myself decided to pack up our cameras and go get some pictures. When we got there, we scouted aroung and decided that a railroad overpass would make for a great camera angle. About 1/2 minute after wwe got on the bridge and got about 8 feet from the rail we heard the command "Do not move". At each end of the over pass were 2 Secret Service Agents, each onearmed with M16 rifles. Let me tell you, having 4, M16's aimed straight at you WILL get your attention. It will also burn that memory into your memory forever. After confirming out identity and inspecting the pistol grip I had mounted to my 400m lens they let us go. However, I learned one very strong lesson from that. That is that the Secret Service bodyguard detail in the MOST no nonsense agency in law enforcement and you do NOT want to violate security protocol. You get on the ground and take exactly the same pictures as everyone else present. I can also tell you that the agents that you have to worry about most are not the ones you can see, it's the ones you can't see that you have to worry about, they'll have a bead on your "10 ring" and they'll beaiming a weaponwith a set trigger that breaks at about 2 lbs.. Think about that next time you consider going to a Presidential event with a handgun.

So, go out and pass out all the flyers you want at a Rally. Heck, take a picture of your S & W 500 Magnum and see if you can get Sarah Palin's autograph on it. Just don't take the gun with you because it's a really really bad idea.




 

Pa. Patriot

State Researcher
Joined
May 4, 2007
Messages
1,441
Location
Just a "wannabe" in Mtn. Top, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

Actually, scooter, we do get your point. We just see how poorly researched it is.

Everywhere that OC has been making a comback, gun rights have INCREASED.. not decreased.
Probably because OC'ers bring many issues to light that CC'ers have ignored or taken and then been quit about since they felt lucky to get away with whatever they got.

Anywy..

Again, OC has done the opposite of what your concerned about. Take a while and research before condeming based on your presumptions.
 

Seif5034

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2008
Messages
169
Location
Hickory, MS
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
case 1

mostly domestic assults and drunken behavior,
case 2
Presidential Rally with a gun, either Open or Concealed?

Case 1: Are you saying that Assault and Drunkeness are not all that dangerous/serious?

case 2: The rights of a presidential candidate do not trump the rights of the average citizen.
 

ruger45

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
241
Location
Burton, Michigan, USA
imported post

everyone has there own opinion.me yes i would of not oc to see a possible president.gh i hope he gets a lot of money but everyone has there own thoughts.
 

Mike

Site Co-Founder
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
8,706
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:

You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan.
Huh? Open carry a privilege? Did you read Heller? carry is the right, but not concealed carry.

So, . . . what;s left? Open Carry!
 

mzbk2l

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2007
Messages
425
Location
Superstition Mountain, Arizona, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:

You folks just don't get my point. The Privilege to carry openly has already been granted in Michigan. However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule. Don't ever forget that.
Had to stop right there, as the OP apparently has not even researched enough to understand the fundamental differences between rights and privileges.

(BTW, I though we were ruled by laws, not "numbers.")
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
However, we live in a democratic society and in this type of society, numbers rule.
No on all counts.

We do not live in a democratic society because we are not all equal, we never have been and never will be.

In a democratic society fools rule and fools are innumerate and illiterate.

Only when the people are held to to the lowest common denominator will an egalitarian society be realized.
 

DanM

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
1,928
Location
West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
imported post

Scooter123 wrote:
...The Privilege to carry openly...the Open Carry privilege...any nut with a gun can carry...it's probably perfectly legal to Carry Openly while falling down drunk...in regards to that idiot...take a picture of your S & W 500 Magnum and see if you can get Sarah Palin's autograph on it.


Wiggle, wiggle. The bait wiggles, but I'm not biting. :D

Troll, go back under the bridge from whence you came.
 

Alwayspacking

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
599
Location
Lakewood, Washington, USA
imported post

Case one: I would have carried there also if I did not see a no weapons posting. Sir there is no place that is free from crime not even a church. Yes he did need his gun there.

Case two: I do not think the guy was in the same place of the rally but close to it.But with that being said, I would not carry there myself, and when I read that story I said the same thing to myselfSTUPID STUPID STUPID. But even with that said, he did not do anything wrong, and he has a right to carry there. I went to a place full of kids with my family, I felt the need to CC there being around all the kids. I try to be wise with my OC.
 
Top