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Thread: NEED ADVICE

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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    Maybe a REGIONAL TEEM MEMBER or someone with experiance can help me. I have been in contact with the chief of police of my city. I have sent him the leo document, and sent a few emails back and forth.Info is in my post here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...253235#p253235

    I'm not sure where to go from here, and he seems to be getting perturbed with my 2 emails. Thanks for all the help so far, I feel like im in over my head...
    What Do I Feel When I Kill A Terrorist? .........A Little Recoil

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Why are you e-mailing the Chief?

    If you are afraid of being detained or arrested by a LEO, or if you are not well versed in the law with regards to OC, DO NOT OPEN CARRY!

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    dougwg wrote:
    Why are you e-mailing the Chief?

    If you are afraid of being detained or arrested by a LEO, or if you are not well versed in the law with regards to OC, DO NOT OPEN CARRY!
    +1

    I would like to add however......Educate yourself about lawful open carry. The best place to start doing that is right here at OCDO. A good starting point would be here http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/13328.html

    Read it all. Read it again. Then try to disprove anything it says. I am sure at the end of that journey, you will find yourself very enlightened.

    All you can do is "try" to educate LE. In order to do that you "might" have to go to jail. Once they actually take the time to try and nail you with something, they will see they have no charges against you for performing a lawful act. Thus also in the process educating themselves.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    CHIEF'S REPLYEMAIL: "I don't want to go back and forth over this.....however, I wonder if you might be missing something pertaining to the pistol free zones?

    Both lists are very, very similar. Therefore excluding both open and concealed carry regardless of permit (re:234d) in locations contained on the lists. A person can carrywith a CPL any of thespecific locations listed in 234d ONLY if that locationis not also prohibited in the CPL legislation!At the end of the day, open carry and CPL carry are prohibited in what appears to be all but the one location (banks for CPL). Again, courts are permitted to make their own rules for carry within their buildings."

    He isn't getting it. The places listed in .234d exempts a CPL holder, but a new law was created since then that states you can't carry CONCEALED in those places listed in the CPL law. Therefore in order to carry in those places listed in .234d with the CPL exemption you MUST OC. Really simple.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    While it's a good idea to edit your post to include concurrent emails (talking about the other thread you posted this in), it would also be a good idea to repost the replys so as to provide an up to date time line. That way it allows the auto email notification to notofy others who are watching this thread, and it shows how some reply posts are either before or after the correspondence with the Chief.

    Now, onto my comments:

    Chief Neidermeier wrote:
    I am a bit confused over your use of the AG opinion 7097. It basically states that CPL holders are not covered by 234d, however, open carry is.

    Incorrect, it is not saying that. What it’s saying is that CPL holders are not exempt from 5o, by means of 234d. IOW, “they cannot carry a concealed pistol into those zones just because they have a CPL, because 5o prohibits such actions.


    Chief Neidermeier wrote:
    Likewise, CPL holders have their own list which is mostly inclusive of the same locations plus a few others in the law enacted in 2000.
    Again he misinterprets. It is not CPL holders who “have their own list…“, but concealed carry that has it’s own list (it is not the person, but the act itself that is prohibited).

    MCL 750.234d, subsection 2c allows CPL holders to carry into the restricted zones that it specifically outlines. MCL 28.425o list certain locations in which a CPL holder must not carry a pistol in a “concealed” manner. It makes no such restriction on OC, or CPL holders who OC.


    Chief Neidermeier wrote:
    Banks appear to be not listed for CPL…
    Correct

    Chief Neidermeier wrote:
    … but restricted for open carry…
    Not for, “A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.”




    Chief Neidermeier wrote:
    Basically, both laws co-exist. Am I missing something?
    Yes, he is missing something. He’s trying to say that since a person has a CPL, they give up their right to OC in certain areas, because the provisions of their CPL prevent them from OC’ing in the zones listed under MCL 750.234d. There is no such provision (in either MCL 750.234d, or MCL 28.425o.


    That AG opinion is referring to concealed carry, and it basically says that since the Section 28.425o restricts concealed carry from certain areas, then they are not exempted from doing so under MCL 750.234d, subsection 2c. Notice what the Opinion is addressing:

    AG Opinoin #7097 wrote:
    “You have asked whether a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code, exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.”
    Emphasis added

    5o is written for "concealed carry", and makes no restrictions on open carry.



    She then goes on to say:

    AG Opinoin #7097 wrote:
    “In section 5o, however, the Legislature enumerated certain so-called gun-free zones, i.e., premises where a person licensed to carry a concealed pistol shall not carry a concealed pistol.”
    Still talking about “concealed” pistols.



    Then, she concludes with:

    AG Opinoin #7097 wrote:
    It is my opinion, therefore, that a private investigator licensed to carry a concealed pistol is not, by reason of section 234d of the Michigan Penal Code,
    exempt from the gun-free zone restrictions imposed by section 5o of the Concealed Pistol Licensing Act.”
    Again, emphasis added. Sorry about the formating.


    She is still addressing the concept ofcarrying aconcealed pistol (since she is refering to 5o, and that is what 5o addresses), being exemptfrom the “concealed” carry law. All she is saying here is that you can’t carry concealed in these areas.



    To clarify things:

    MCL 750.234d list certain “gun free zones”, from which CPL holders are exempted from (under subsection 2c). As such, a CPL holder may carry into any of the locations listed in 750.234d. Simple enough.

    Then, MCL 28.425o comes along and list certain areas where people are prohibited from carrying a concealed pistol. It makes no restriction on the openly carrying of a pistol by CPL holders. Also simple.

    Essentially, if a person has a CPL, then he/she may carry in the zones listed in MCL 750.234d, but if any of those zones are also listed in MCL 28.425o, then the CPL holder may not carry a concealed pistol into those areas. There is no prohibition to a CPL holder carrying openly in those areas.

    Still pretty simple, but you might ask him where it specifically states that, a CPL holder may not OC in the places listed in MCL 750.234d. He of course won't be able to point it out to you since there are no such restrictions.


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    double post.



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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    I do believe I asked for input on how to deal with the situation, not a detailed explination of the law. I have read all the stuff on ocdc, and I get it. So once again if anyone has any further input on dealing with the chief please tell me. If not I will not be contacting him any more. Thats all. The end.
    What Do I Feel When I Kill A Terrorist? .........A Little Recoil

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    Gosirr wrote:
    I do believe I asked for input on how to deal with the situation, not a detailed explination of the law. I have read all the stuff on ocdc, and I get it. So once again if anyone has any further input on dealing with the chief please tell me. If not I will not be contacting him any more. Thats all. The end.
    My apologies. I meant no insult.

    I am working on a letter to send him, and intended to post it before sending. Probably later tonight.

    Is that the kind of input your looking for?

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    Gosirr wrote:
    I do believe I asked for input on how to deal with the situation, not a detailed explination of the law. I have read all the stuff on ocdc, and I get it. So once again if anyone has any further input on dealing with the chief please tell me. If not I will not be contacting him any more. Thats all. The end.


    Okay (again, sorry about all the info that you didn't ask for), I'll try again.

    I would agree that he sounds perturbed with your emails. As a matter of fact, it sounds like he isn't even interested in hearing anymore about it. IMO, this can mean one, or both of two things. One is that you are not articulating your case very well. The other is that he just isn't interested in hearing it, and is purposely becoming argumentative.

    Because he actually responded to not one, but two of your emails, I think he should get some benefit of the doubt. However, his last comments (as well as his previous ones) may indicate that the only reason he even bothered is because he thinks he can convince you that your wrong.

    You might consider writing him and asking him where it specifically states that a CPL holder may not OC in any of the “zones” listed in either MCL 750.234d, or MCL 28.425o. After all, MCL 750.234d clearly states that a CPL holder is exempt, and MCL 28.425o clearly states that it only applies to "concealed" carry. I'd also recommend that you use the actual MCL number designations, instead of referring to them as CPL law, or Preemption law, etc.... For example, you stated that,

    Gosirr wrote:
    “The CPL covers places you can't carry concealed, and i think the bank is the only difference.”
    A CPL is merely a license that allows a person to carry a concealed pistol. It doesn’t cover any “places”. A “CPL” is not a law, it’s a license. I know this sounds like nitpicking, but your writing a public official, and you should use the correct terms. I’m not trying to bash you here. The reason I say this is because it can give him the impression that you are either too lazy to find and use the correct terminology, or that your just not as knowledgeable as your trying to come of as. The latter is only reinforced by the statement,

    “and I think the bank is the only difference.“
    This statement gives the impression that you aren’t sure of yourself. Don’t tell him what you “think”, tell him what you “know”, and if you don’t know, then find out before writing him.


    Based on his responses to your emails, I’m guessing it is a possibility that he thinks your knowledge and confidence levels are low enough that he can convince you that your wrong. When that didn’t work, he decided to come across in a harsher tone, and then end it. As I said, it’s possible that your emails gave him the impression of a lack of either effort, or knowledge. Either that, or they just confused him. You don’t want to give him the impression of either. You want to give him the impression that you are a concerned citizen, who is rational, knowledgeable, and professional. That means that your correspondence with him should be that way.


    Look,

    Don’t get upset with us if you don’t get the right answers right away. Sometimes clarification is necessary. We want to help. TBH, I thought my previous post was helpful in that it demonstrates some counterpoints to the Chief’s points. If this post isn’t helpful, then give us some more direction.

    Do let us know what you decide, because I am thinking of sending him an email myself. It is as follows:




    Dear Chief Neidermeier,

    An email of yours was recently posted on an open forum, and I am writing to help clear up any confusion.

    One of the members of the Michigan section of opencarry.org has posted some correspondence he has had with you in hopes of getting some help in properly addressing the issue with you.

    The following is the latest that we have seen from you:

    “I don't want to go back and forth over this.....however, I wonder if you might be missing something pertaining to the pistol free zones?

    Both lists are very, very similar. Therefore excluding both open and concealed carry regardless of permit (re:234d) in locations contained on the lists. A person can carry with a CPL any of the specific locations listed in 234d ONLY if that location is not also prohibited in the CPL legislation! At the end of the day, open carry and CPL carry are prohibited in what appears to be all but the one location (banks for CPL). Again, courts are permitted to make their own rules for carry within their buildings.”



    First, you stated the following:


    Both lists are very, very similar. Therefore excluding both open and concealed carry regardless of permit (re:234d) in locations contained on the lists. A person can carry with a CPL any of the specific locations listed in 234d ONLY if that location is not also prohibited in the CPL legislation!


    With all due respect Chief, the law says no such thing. What the law does say is that, a person with a CPL can “conceal” carry in any of the specific locations listed in 234d ONLY if that location is not also prohibited in the MCL 28.425o. Neither law prohibits a CPL holder from openly carrying a firearm in any of those locations.

    MCL 750.234d (sub-section 2c) makes an exemption for a CPL holder to carry in it’s respective listed zones, and MCL 28.425o lists certain “zones” in which a CPL holder may not carry a “concealed” pistol (it says nothing about open carry). Neither one make any such restriction on open carry as you suggest.

    However, if you can point me to a law that prohibits a CPL holder from openly carrying in the places listed in either of the above mentioned laws (as neither of them makes any such prohibition), then I’d be happy to review it.

    Furthermore, the Michigan Attorney General Opinion #7097 is clear in that it address the matter of a CPL holder being exempt from the restrictions imposed by MCL 28.425o (which lists no prohibitions of open carry by a CPL holder). That Opinion addresses the question of , if a CPL holder can carry a “concealed” pistol into the “zones” listed under MCL 28.425o, which are only restrictions on “concealed” carry.

    You also stated:

    At the end of the day, open carry and CPL carry are prohibited in what appears to be all but the one location (banks for CPL). ..

    Again, there are no such prohibitions in the law. There is a law prohibiting a CPL holder from carrying a concealed pistol into the restricted zones listed in MCL 28.424o, but there is no law prohibiting a CPL holder from openly carrying in those places. Again, if there is another MCL that does place such prohibitions on open carry by a CPL holder in said zones, then I’d be interested in hearing about it. However, MCL’s 750.234d, and 28.425o do not.


    Essentially, MCL 750.234d exempts CPL holders from it's own prohibitons, and MCL 28.425o prohibits concealed carry in it's respective zones. No mention is mad of open carry in either law.


    I hope this clarifies this matter for you, and I thank you for your time in sending out your previous correspondence, as well as for the service you provide the community.


    Sincerely,

    Ghostrider



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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    ghostrider- pm sent to you.



    someone delete next 2 posts-computer glitch.
    What Do I Feel When I Kill A Terrorist? .........A Little Recoil

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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    What Do I Feel When I Kill A Terrorist? .........A Little Recoil

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    Regular Member Gosirr's Avatar
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    What Do I Feel When I Kill A Terrorist? .........A Little Recoil

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    Sent the email out to the good Chief tonight.

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    Regular Member Tucker6900's Avatar
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    Gosirr wrote:
    Maybe a REGIONAL TEEM MEMBER or someone with experiance can help me. I have been in contact with the chief of police of my city. I have sent him the leo document, and sent a few emails back and forth.Info is in my post here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...253235#p253235

    I'm not sure where to go from here, and he seems to be getting perturbed with my 2 emails. Thanks for all the help so far, I feel like im in over my head...
    Itsounds like you've done all you should have to do by sending him the LEO packet. And unless the chief is a friend of yours and you have a problem with upsetting him, then Id leave it at just that. Packet sent. Mission accomplished. In my experience with dealing with chiefs is that they try to do two things:

    1)Try to tell you that OC is Illegal and that you will be arrested for it.And nothing you say or do will get you out of it.

    2)Try to talk you out of it.They'll ask you questions like "Why would you want to cause alarm to thepublic by carrying a weapon?"And: "What do youneed a gun for anyway?"

    Tell him ifhe has anyquestions about OC and CC inMichigan to contact his PA or AG.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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