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Thread: Reciprocity update. This makes my rear end tired. We have GOT to fix this.

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    ************************************************** ****
    3. Reciprocity update. This makes my rear end tired. We have GOT to
    fix this. :-(
    ************************************************** ****

    **** SOUTH CAROLINA RESIDENTS - BE SURE TO READ THIS ENTIRE SECTION!
    ****

    Tom Lambert, with the Virginia State Police, just sent me an update on
    Virginia's reciprocity status with several other states. I want to
    thank Tom for his professionalism and his diligent work to setup
    reciprocity with as many states as possible. The rant that follows
    has nothing to do with Tom - I want to make that perfectly clear.

    As I looked at Tom's latest update, one glaring problem jumps out at
    me: the Virginia State Police's demand that all reciprocal states
    have a system in place to verify the validity of their permits 24
    hours a day, 7 days a week, is crushing a lot of reciprocal agreements!

    The net effect is that YOU are left defenseless in many states as you
    travel solely because if this unnecessary requirement by YOUR state
    police. And many guests to this state are similarly and unnecessarily
    disarmed.

    That is unacceptable and we need to do whatever we can to get that
    24/7 requirement struck out of Virginia law.

    Let me show you just how inane and how serious a problem this is.

    ***Virginia has JUST stopped recognizing South Carolina concealed
    handgun permits. ***

    Why?

    Because apparently South Carolina does not have the 24/7 validation
    capability. For years now Virginia thought they did and has been
    recognizing their permits! Virginia just now discovered the problem
    while reviewing information with South Carolina!

    So for years not one single Virginia police officer has needed to
    verify a South Carolina CHP. If they had, this problem would have
    surfaced a long time ago.

    That confirms what VCDL has been saying all along: WHILE THE STATE
    POLICE DEMAND 24/7 VALIDATION, VCDL DOES NOT BELIEVE THAT THEY EVER OR
    **EXTREMELY RARELY** USE IT!!

    Here is what the State Police's 24/7 validation demand has caused gun
    owners across the country:

    1. After many, many years, South Carolina has just offered Virginia
    reciprocity, BUT because we have just stopped recognizing South
    Carolina over the 24/7 issue, the deal is DEAD! :-(
    2. Virginia will not recognize Idaho, even though they have honored
    our permits for years, because Idaho does not have 24/7 validation.
    3. Virginia will not recognize Indiana, even though they have honored
    our permits for years, because Indiana does not have 24/7 validation.
    4. Virginia will not setup reciprocity with Maine because Maine
    doesn't have 24/7 validation.
    5. Virginia will not setup reciprocity with Alabama because Alabama
    doesn't have 24/7 validation.
    6. Virginia will not setup reciprocity with New Hampshire because New
    Hampshire doesn't have 24/7 validation.
    7. In a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander", Nevada
    has turned Virginia down because our damned 24/7 validation isn't
    automated!

    The State Police and the General Assembly need to understand this is
    not a game. Lives are at stake and we need to get rid of the road
    blocks that are fragmenting the 2nd Amendment and our right to defend
    ourselves and our families.

    This whole issue has just been bumped up in VCDL's legislative agenda
    for next year.

    We finally get offered reciprocity by South Carolina and the Virginia
    State Police force us to fumble the ball. I'm livid!

    If you are from South Carolina, you are going to have to use either a
    Florida, Utah, or a Virginia non-resident permit to carry concealed
    here, I'm embarrassed to say. [/code]

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    WTF! And I'm heading out early tomorrow morning to South Carolina for a week.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Hope you mountaineers get this issue solved and hopfully SC will offer again in the near future.. GOOD LUCK! this looks like a major problem for you guys.hopfully only for a short while..

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    Looks like we're about to hit the same brick wall. One more reason West Virginia needs to enact a universal recognition law such as 2008 SB 228 or HB 4683, which I wrote.

    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    The NRA 'members' and a$$iliates would like to be the dominant political power in the SC gun control debate and their tracks are all over 'reciprocity'.

    The NRA Emperor has no clothes! Whatever tracks he leaves are good and beautiful according to his sycophants.

    you can thank the NRA and their boy

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    Ironic thing is that if the original universal recognition bill had passed it would make no difference for SC residents as it had nothing to do with a 24/7 verification process.

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    PT111 wrote:
    Ironic thing is that if the original universal recognition bill had passed it would make no difference for SC residents as it had nothing to do with a 24/7 verification process.

    I think SLED once did provide 24/7 verification at a time when SC law did not permit the establishment of reciprocity with VA and WV and conveniently decided to stop offering it since SC's reciprocity law changed. They continue to screw with us and merely pulled this rabbit from the hat, which also gives them the luxury of externalizing the blame and telling the SC General Assembly that it's not their fault this time.

    I would bet anything that if SC had a universal recognition law (such as the House version of H 3212)and needed to meet the VA and WV 24/7 verification requirements to get SC CWPs recognized here, they would not need much time to do so. All it takes is having someone man the phone at SLED HQ CWP Section 24/7 and providing that phone number to the VA State Police and WV State Police--that's it!

    All SLED has done is give me and PVC the extra ammo we need to finally get our respective legislatures to stop this shell game by dropping our own conditional reciprocity laws in favor of universal recognition (see 2007 VA HB 2235 2008 WV SB 228 andHB 4683).I wishmy SC counterparts luck onsimilar legislation, since I know that the new SC reciprocity law still does not allow reciprocity with GA, AL, MS, and many other states that are willing to establish reciprocity with anyone and everyone.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    Pinging 1swellguy, XO at GRSC...e-mail sent.

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    I think a FL permit holder who is a citizen outside of FL should sue SC to strike down their discrimination against FL permit holders based purely on state citizenship under Article IV, privileges and immunities clause.

    A victory on this issue would actually do more for national recoprocity than any other effort will achieve.

    Any takers? Should not cost more than around $25,00 - $50,000 (retail) and you will get your money back if you win, which is a strong liklihood. Try to find a SC lawyeer who will cut you a break on your terms as she can collect at ratail rate from DC if she wins.

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    Lets try to take donations to see how many and how bad S.Carolinians want this.

    edited:my bad i misread the above post yeah sue them..

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    First our ex-patriate Floridian must establish standing.

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Pinging 1swellguy, XO at GRSC...e-mail sent.
    This is a "concealed" carry issue, not an OC issue, right?

    GrassRoots GunRights of SC worked very hard to get the original version of H. 3212 passed last session. We have been assured by its author (Rep Gregg Delleney) that the same clean, full recognition bill will be re-introduced next session (January) and they will try again to pass it. Last session, the bill passed with a large margin in the SC House only to be blocked by a few state Senators until they could amend it to be virtually worthless (with collaboration & backing from the local NRA reps). [See the video on our website at http://www.SCFirearms.org ] GrassRoots will continue to support the clean recognition bill next year.

    I'm surprised that VA is taking this action, since SC law has not changed regarding our CWP verification system. As I understand it, what we now have is the same thing we had when VA decided to recognize SC permits. An SC CWP permit is STILL good as an "instant check" when purchasing a firearm. The only change I see here is the perception VA has/had regarding our instant check system.

    It could be that someone at SLED is hoping to bring up any technicality possible which would help curtail reciprocity/recognition, but the truth is we just don't know.

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    1swellguy wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    Pinging 1swellguy, XO at GRSC...e-mail sent.
    This is a "concealed" carry issue, not an OC issue, right?

    GrassRoots GunRights of SC worked very hard to get the original version of H. 3212 passed last session. We have been assured by its author (Rep Gregg Delleney) that the same clean, full recognition bill will be re-introduced next session (January) and they will try again to pass it. Last session, the bill passed with a large margin in the SC House only to be blocked by a few state Senators until they could amend it to be virtually worthless (with collaboration & backing from the local NRA reps). [See the video on our website at http://www.SCFirearms.org ] GrassRoots will continue to support the clean recognition bill next year.

    I'm surprised that VA is taking this action, since SC law has not changed regarding our CWP verification system. As I understand it, what we now have is the same thing we had when VA decided to recognize SC permits. An SC CWP permit is STILL good as an "instant check" when purchasing a firearm. The only change I see here is the perception VA has/had regarding our instant check system.

    It could be that someone at SLED is hoping to bring up any technicality possible which would help curtail reciprocity/recognition, but the truth is we just don't know.

    Actually, our laws have nothing to do with whether a particular state's permits qualify as a Permanent Brady Alternative--for which neither VA nor WV qualifies.

    Va. Code § 18.2-308(P) and W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a(d)(2)require reciprocal/recognized states to be able to instantly verify the validity of a permit 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. This means, for example, that SLED would need to provide some means by which VA and WV law-enforcement officers could contact SLED 24/7 and be able to instantly determine whether a SC CWP is a valid permit (i.e., that it is a legitimate permit issued to the purported permittee and that it has not been cancelled, suspended, or revoked).

    As I indicated in a prior post above, there have been efforts in both VA and WV to eliminate this hurdle to reciprocity with many states. I also maintain that SLED probably can provide adequate verification but is now playing games because they're looking for a reason to deny WV reciprocity that they can pin on us and then tell the SC General Assembly they tried their best and that we have tied SLED's hands. I promise that we will call them on this by bolstering our own efforts to pass a universal recognition bill here in West Virginia and end this shell game.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    WVCDL wrote:
    PT111 wrote:
    Ironic thing is that if the original universal recognition bill had passed it would make no difference for SC residents as it had nothing to do with a 24/7 verification process.

    I think SLED once did provide 24/7 verification at a time when SC law did not permit the establishment of reciprocity with VA and WV and conveniently decided to stop offering it since SC's reciprocity law changed. They continue to screw with us and merely pulled this rabbit from the hat, which also gives them the luxury of externalizing the blame and telling the SC General Assembly that it's not their fault this time.

    I would bet anything that if SC had a universal recognition law (such as the House version of H 3212)and needed to meet the VA and WV 24/7 verification requirements to get SC CWPs recognized here, they would not need much time to do so. All it takes is having someone man the phone at SLED HQ CWP Section 24/7 and providing that phone number to the VA State Police and WV State Police--that's it!

    All SLED has done is give me and PVC the extra ammo we need to finally get our respective legislatures to stop this shell game by dropping our own conditional reciprocity laws in favor of universal recognition (see 2007 VA HB 2235 2008 WV SB 228 andHB 4683).I wishmy SC counterparts luck onsimilar legislation, since I know that the new SC reciprocity law still does not allow reciprocity with GA, AL, MS, and many other states that are willing to establish reciprocity with anyone and everyone.
    Based on another Site, SC Grass roots (Bill) has been in touch with VA and SLED. this seams to have been a missunderstanding. SLED does have the system, and VA will be verifying (hopefully coming on boad with us soon)

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    340mopar wrote:
    Based on another Site, SC Grass roots (Bill) has been in touch with VA and SLED. this seams to have been a missunderstanding. SLED does have the system, and VA will be verifying (hopefully coming on boad with us soon)
    Link please. I visit http://www.scfirearms.org frequently and had not noticed what you report.

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    340mopar wrote:
    Based on another Site, SC Grass roots (Bill) has been in touch with VA and SLED. this seams to have been a missunderstanding. SLED does have the system, and VA will be verifying (hopefully coming on boad with us soon)
    I am also pleased to say that things are still on track for a SC-WV reciprocity agreement. West Virginia Deputy AG Tom Smith e-mailed me this morning and confirmed that South Carolina meets West Virginia's 24/7 verification requirement, that SLED has proposed appropriate language on this issue in the current draft reciprocity agreement, and that the only remaining hurdle is ironing out some legalese in the agreement to conform to some technical requirements of West Virginia law.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    The Latest on Virginia from SC Grass Roots:

    Ok, here is the straight scoop so far.

    VCDL sent out an alert that VA dropped recognition of SC permits
    because VA claimed SC doesn't have a 24/7 system of permit verification.

    I called SLED Regulatory and they said we DO have a 24/7 system of
    permit verification.

    I emailed the VA state police (and CC'd VCDL) to let them know SLED
    Regulatory says SC does in fact have such a system.

    I received this reply from Tom Lambert of VSP:
    -----------------------------------
    Dear Mr. Rentiers:

    Thank you for your email. The original information regarding 24/7
    verification was provided by both Capt Drakeford of SLED Regulatory
    and by message from the SC Communication center. Based on your contact
    we have re-contacted Capt Drakeford at SLED who indicated that they
    may have been mistaken in their initial response and will verify the
    availability for 24/7 verification shortly. I will contact you with
    their response.

    Tom Lambert
    -----------------------------------

    Hopefully this means we will at least get VA Recognition back, and
    perhaps even full Reciprocity.

    We are now left to wonder why/how SLED gave out erroneous information
    to Virginia officials in the first place. Capt Drakeford is the person
    replacing Capt Cliff Weir at Regulatory who retired recently.

    Bill

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    340mopar wrote:
    Dear Mr. Rentiers:

    Thank you for your email. The original information regarding 24/7
    verification was provided by both Capt Drakeford of SLED Regulatory
    and by message from the SC Communication center. Based on your contact
    we have re-contacted Capt Drakeford at SLED who indicated that they
    may have been mistaken in their initial response and will verify the
    availability for 24/7 verification shortly. I will contact you with
    their response.

    Tom Lambert
    Wow. You guys repost my stuff here faster than I can do it myself. I need guys like y'all on my staff!

    Bill

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    Only thing faster is a lie..



    LOL

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    Still no word from VA?!

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    340mopar wrote:
    Still no word from VA?!
    I exchanged emails with Tom Lambert of VSP earlier this week. He said VA has mailed the necessary paperwork to SC (SLED) and is awaiting a reply.

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    SC has been place back on the list of states that VA will honor. From thisI expect an agreement shortly.

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Reciprocity.shtm

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    PT111 wrote:
    SC has been place back on the list of states that VA will honor. From thisI expect an agreement shortly.

    http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms_Reciprocity.shtm
    Great catch!!

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    http://www.sled.sc.gov/Reciprocity1.aspx?MenuID=CWP
    As of September 12, 2008, states with which South Carolina has reciprocity are:

    Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, Tennessee, and Wyoming.

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    However, the following is important...

    Residents of reciprocal states who hold permits issued by their states of residence may carry concealed firearms in South Carolina...

    Which means, even though I live in VA and have both VA and FL concealed permits, until VA is recognized I can't carry in SC.

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