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Thread: Open Carry NOT ALLOWED in North Fayette Walmart

  1. #1
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    I am a Texas native and my work takes me all over the U.S. I frequently visit this site to see where I can openly carry my pistol. Upon arriving to PA, I immediately went to theMoon TownshipPD and spoke with an officer. I lethim know I had a CCW in Texas and Alabama and I knew that PA was an open carry state. I asked if there were any restrictions I needed to be aware of. The officer told me that I had to have a permit to carry in a vehicle and in the city of Philadelphia. The officer also told methat although open carry was legal, but he would recommend that I carry concealed if I had a permit. He was very courteous and told me "it would be wrong for me to tell you not to open carry, but concealed will keep down any inconvenience."

    Last night, I was in Walmart in North Fayette, PAshopping with my fiance and my grandson. As we are waiting at the customer service booth to cash my expense checks, a man (apparently a Walmart employee) approached me and asked if I was a cop. I told him I was not. He then asked if I had a carry permit. I said I did, but this state permitsOC and I did not need a permit. He told me that Walmart does not permitOC because "it scares the customers". I told him there was nothing posted at the entrance to indicate that. He then told me I had a choice of either taking my pistol to my car or he would have to call the police. I told him he had already approached me and that he needed to call the police. I finished cashing my checks and accompanied him outside to wait for the police. As we waited, he told me he had a permit to carry concealed, but he was against open carry.

    When the police arrived, the Walmart employee told the officer what was going on. I gave the officermy license and carry permit. The officer began writing down information and asking me questions.Theofficercommented about "the guy last week" and asked if I was him. The Walmart employee told him that was a different guy. During all of this my pistol was in plain view for all to see. After he had asked all of the necessary questions, he asked me to relenquish my weapon so he could check the registration and make sure it wasn't stolen. I gave him my weapon and told him he would not find any registration, as Texas does not require gun owners to register. He called his supervisor to verify that information.

    While we were waiting for the dispatcher, the Walmart employee began talking about open carry and how it was a bad idea. He said that if you OC'd you would be the first one a criminal took out during a crime. The officer said he did not even carry his pistol off-duty because he didn't want to be a target. I told them they were thinking only in the singular. Picture the look on a criminal's face if he walked into a bank and there were several citizens with pistols prominently displayed on their hips. The choice toOC is an individual choice and if they chose not to, then that was their right. My choice is to OC and as long as I could legally do so, I would.

    After everything checked out, the officer returned my pistol to me. He handed me theshell he had removed from the chamber, my clip and then my pistol. He said "wait until you get in your car to reload your gun". Whenthe officertold me I had been asked to leave Walmart, the Walmart employee told him I was more than welcome to return back to the store and continue my shopping. The officer then said I could go back into Walmart, but I would need to leave my pistol in my car. The Walmart employee told the officer that I was more than welcome to carry in the store, I just have to have my pistol concealed. The officer then gave me "the lecture" about how I needed to look into a different holster or getting an ankle holster so I could keep my pistol concealed while I was there. I told him as far as I knew, it was still legal to open carry in PA and I wasn't going to go the extra expense to buy equipment I didn't need. Both the officer and the Walmart employee apologized for the inconvenience and shook my hand.

    One additional point I would like to make to anyone who open carries. When approached by police or and individual, don't get defensive or hostile. This only gives ammo to those who oppose OC and it will put a police officer on the defensive. Be polite and cooperative. You can simply state you have a right to OC and not seem like a nut job. From the reference the officer made about "the guy last week", I could only conclude that he had gotten irate at being inconvenienced. I take every opportunity to educate the public and law enforcement on open carry and they tend not to listen if they think you are a radical.

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    IMHO, in general you did a great job. Did you get the name of the "Walmart employee" (did he show you ID?) so that you could check and see if he had the authority to make this the policy of the store?

    If he did, then it would seem they have the right to establish a no open carry zone in their property. They should probably post signs at the entrances to limit the inconvenience to customers.

    Ken

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    No sir, I did not get his name, but my plan was to call the store and talk to the manager. The problem is this, if it is legal to open carry w/o a permit and I walk into a store that only permits concealed carry, I would have to break the law and conceal my weapon or leave the store. Walmart, or any other store, does have the right to regulate policy. However, they need to post a sign at each entrance to inform the public as to their policy. Here's the kicker..............I have been in that store at least a dozen times before and was never approached.

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    Macboo wrote:
    No sir, I did not get his name, but my plan was to call the store and talk to the manager. The problem is this, if it is legal to open carry w/o a permit and I walk into a store that only permits concealed carry, I would have to break the law and conceal my weapon or leave the store. Walmart, or any other store, does have the right to regulate policy. However, they need to post a sign at each entrance to inform the public as to their policy. Here's the kicker..............I have been in that store at least a dozen times before and was never approached.
    You might be better off contacting the corporate office of Wal-Mart.

    In the past, members have posted that their (Wal-Mart) response to this was that Wal-Mart honored the laws of the state in which the store is located. That being the case, OC would be acceptable in this store. Your efforts at following through on this could cause the local manager to become properly informed and clear the way for many.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    The official policy of Wal-Mart (been posted around here already) is to follow state law for carry on public property. Therefore, it should be Wal-Mart's corporate stance to allow open and concealed carry in Pennsylvania. While it's at the discretion of a private property owner to set limitations for use of his property, this might be a situation in which to contact the corporate level of Wal-Mart to report a rogue store that is breaking corporate policy.

    As for surrendering your gun to "check if it's stolen"... I'd be curious what legal basis the LEO had in order to make that request. Did he ask you for your cellphone, so that he could check the phone number to make sure it wasn't stolen? Or how about taking a DNA sample, to make sure you're not a rapist? Fortunately, the PD with which you had dealt was better educated than some, and didn't just steal your gun and make you prove ownership...


    Also note: There is no gun registration in Pennsylvania! It is EXPLICITLY prohibited by state law! Any LEO discussing "registration" in regards to handguns needs to go back to New York or find a job that doesn't require knowing how to read English:


    § 6111.4. Registration of firearms. Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.


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    I have contacted Walmart corporate and I am awaiting their reply. If possible, I will get a written statement from the corporate office and scan it in so it is available to everyone.

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    It sounds like you did a good job of remaining calm and non-confrontational. You can remain non-confrontational without being overly compliant, though, and my one suggestion would be to not be quite so cooperative when it comes to handing over your gun.

    When the officer asked you to hand over your pistol so that he could "check it for registration", why not simply tell him that there's nothing to check, because there is no gun registration in Texas. (Leave aside that there is no legal registration in PA either, but there is a de facto registration system.)

    Inform him of that, without making any move to disarm, and then wait for him to make the next move. At that point he can either relent, or make further requests, or take your gun without your consent. He will do whatever he will do, but you don't have to assist. You can remain perfectly polite and reasonable and non-confrontational while still calmly declining to cooperate in having your rights violated.

    Good job overall, though! Hopefully we'll soon be testing the response to OC in Texas.


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    Corporate, at least recently, doesn't care. Their local management teams can hold you down and beat you with hammers for all they care.

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    Unless told to leave, I would have told the guy to mind his own business and refresh himself with corporate policy which does not infringe on lawful carry. And if he, apparently acting as an agent of the owner, told you to leave, then that;s the queue to leave, and leave your merchanidise

    Not sure why you had him call the police, but maybe I misunderstand.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Macboo - offering a non-belligerent persona was good and probably contributed to a kinder and gentler conclusion; however, there are several things I would not have done and yes I readily admit that your way was more comfortable for you.

    Since a permit is not required to OC in Pa. (except in a vehicle), I would have politely informed the LEO of that fact - note that the city of Philidelphia does - and not produced my permit.

    Unless I am sadly mistaken, Pa. does not have a requirement to produce ID upon demand. My response would have been under what authority do you request (ask) for my ID, am I suspected of commiting a crime? No ID would have been voluntarily given.....yet.

    In response to his wanting to disarm me so that he could check my weapon against the registry - I would again politely ask under what authority. If he demanded that I be disarmed, I would calmly inform him that if he was giving me an order, I would not resist his doing so but that I would also not touch my weapon in his presence!

    When a LEO asks or requests that you do something, they are not just being polite! They generally do so because they have no legal authority to demand/order you to comply. If you do what they ask, you are doing so voluntarily and you must know the old adage about volunteering.

    Summarizing: No voluntary compliance for request for permit, ID or weapon. I would peaceably (with verbal objection) submit to the LEO's removal of my wallet and weapon if it went that far - unlikely though. After the fact, I would then submit formal complaints as warranted and persue where that lead me.

    Now I presume that this is a lot more pro-active position than you wished to take at the moment and I respect that. One further comment, do not depend on the advice of local law enforcement as to what is legal or not in their area - exception to that might be any State Police publications on the subject. It is incumbant on you to know the applicable laws - research and become familiar with them personally.

    When I traveled to Pa. in July, I carried a full copy of the Pa. firearms stautes with "cliff notes" with me. I OC'd 24/7 in several cities, multiple stores (including Wal-Marts) and restaurants over a one week period. All occurred without any negative incident and included a number of LEOs passing me by. Had one long positive conversation with a soon to be retired LEO and I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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