SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP
Regular Member
imported post
Does Anybody honor "NO WEAPON" signs in too many malls to name & others places that post???
Does Anybody honor "NO WEAPON" signs in too many malls to name & others places that post???
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Does Anybody honor "NO WEAPON" signs?
- Thread starter SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP
- Start date
SIGguy229
Regular Member
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What signs?
What signs?
SIGguy229
Regular Member
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Deleted - double post--sorry
Deleted - double post--sorry
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SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP wrote:
Lets first remember that no weapons signs in NC are strictly a statement of private property policy, and are NOT legally enforceable. Of course, if they ask you to leave when they see your gun, and you don't, then you're trespassing.
Anyway with that said, I do not go unarmed where I don't have to, so I guess my answer would be no. I often conceal when entering such areas in order to avoid confrontation, but that's about it. I've even open carried in places with "No Concealed Weapons" signs, without incident.
SPRINGFIELD_45_ACP wrote:
Lets first remember that no weapons signs in NC are strictly a statement of private property policy, and are NOT legally enforceable. Of course, if they ask you to leave when they see your gun, and you don't, then you're trespassing.
Anyway with that said, I do not go unarmed where I don't have to, so I guess my answer would be no. I often conceal when entering such areas in order to avoid confrontation, but that's about it. I've even open carried in places with "No Concealed Weapons" signs, without incident.
rdinatal
Regular Member
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DreQo: "no weapons signs in NC are strictly a statement of private property policy, and are NOT legally enforceable"
Seriously? I was trying to look that up but have been unsuccessful. (not being a lawyer I talk in plain English)
Can you post some reference?
-R
DreQo: "no weapons signs in NC are strictly a statement of private property policy, and are NOT legally enforceable"
Seriously? I was trying to look that up but have been unsuccessful. (not being a lawyer I talk in plain English)
Can you post some reference?
-R
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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DreQo wrote:
And if you don't leave they will call the cops and you'll be arrested for tresspass. That sounds like "legally enforcable" to me. The "No Weapons" signs are your first warning. Verbally asking you to leave is your second warning. And they may not have to give you the second warning, if their signs are properly posted.
Do you go Hunting/Fishing/Swimming on private property that has been posted "NO Hunting/Fishing/Swimming"?
Would you try to sneak alcoholic beverages into a sporting event that had signs posted "NO Alcoholic Berverages Allowed"? Your not asked to leave, if caught in this instance, you're excorted from the premises in cuffs and taken to jail.
The signage, if legally posted,IS enforcable. Otherwise, it would be pointless to post the signs in the first place.
DreQo wrote:
And if you don't leave they will call the cops and you'll be arrested for tresspass. That sounds like "legally enforcable" to me. The "No Weapons" signs are your first warning. Verbally asking you to leave is your second warning. And they may not have to give you the second warning, if their signs are properly posted.
Do you go Hunting/Fishing/Swimming on private property that has been posted "NO Hunting/Fishing/Swimming"?
Would you try to sneak alcoholic beverages into a sporting event that had signs posted "NO Alcoholic Berverages Allowed"? Your not asked to leave, if caught in this instance, you're excorted from the premises in cuffs and taken to jail.
The signage, if legally posted,IS enforcable. Otherwise, it would be pointless to post the signs in the first place.
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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DreQo wrote:
DreQo wrote:
Statkowski
Regular Member
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To me, "legally posted" means it's backed up by an ordinance or statute.
"No hunting/fishing/swimming" is usually backed up by an ordiance or statute.
Please define "if legally posted."
To me, "legally posted" means it's backed up by an ordinance or statute.
"No hunting/fishing/swimming" is usually backed up by an ordiance or statute.
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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Statkowski wrote:
You'll have to look into your states statutes. Tennessee does have a statute concerning No firearms signage which mandates the size of the sign, the lettering, and specific locations for them to be posted. If a business post a sign as prescribed by the state of Tn, it is "legally posted".
I believe that statute is Tenn Code 39-17-1359. I posted it here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum33/15784.html
Statkowski wrote:
You'll have to look into your states statutes. Tennessee does have a statute concerning No firearms signage which mandates the size of the sign, the lettering, and specific locations for them to be posted. If a business post a sign as prescribed by the state of Tn, it is "legally posted".
I believe that statute is Tenn Code 39-17-1359. I posted it here:
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum33/15784.html
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rdinatal wrote:
Yep!
In the absence of any applicable law, we refer to the rights of a private property owner. They can ask you to leave their property for ANY reason, or no reason at all. If you do not comply, then they can call the police and have you removed. At that point you will more than likely be facing a charge of trespassing, of course. This, however, would NOT be a firearms related violation.
Also, a sign does not constitute an "official warning" in this case. A no weapons sign on a property holds as much power as a no running sign at a swimming pool. You cannot be immediately arrested without question for disobeying either, but you'll probably be asked to leave. Make sense?
I'm sorry Task Force 16, but the laws are a little different here in NC, as is to be expected.
Source:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/byarticle/chapter_14/article_54b.html
(I'm not a lawyer, or anyone else you can blame things on)
rdinatal wrote:
Yep!
Read the boldfaced portions as one sentence for easy reading. This general statute clearly states that a concealed handgun permits does not authorize a person to carry where a sign has been posted. It DOES NOT say that the person is unauthorized to do so, nor does it say that theact is unlawful. In fact, there is NO statute that says carrying where a sign is posted is unlawful. So, without a law saying it's illegal, it is of course legal.
In the absence of any applicable law, we refer to the rights of a private property owner. They can ask you to leave their property for ANY reason, or no reason at all. If you do not comply, then they can call the police and have you removed. At that point you will more than likely be facing a charge of trespassing, of course. This, however, would NOT be a firearms related violation.
Also, a sign does not constitute an "official warning" in this case. A no weapons sign on a property holds as much power as a no running sign at a swimming pool. You cannot be immediately arrested without question for disobeying either, but you'll probably be asked to leave. Make sense?
I'm sorry Task Force 16, but the laws are a little different here in NC, as is to be expected.
Source:
http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/enactedlegislation/statutes/html/byarticle/chapter_14/article_54b.html
(I'm not a lawyer, or anyone else you can blame things on
)Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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NO apology necessary. I figured the laws might differ, that's why I said one should check their own state statutes.
I noticed that NC Statutes do not define "display" of firearms. And that NC state law is not preemptive of local statutes. It appears, unless I misunderstand, that counties or cities could adopt ordinances that prohibit OC, siting that OC is
"displaying" a firearm. Have you had much problem with that in NC.
NO apology necessary. I figured the laws might differ, that's why I said one should check their own state statutes.
I noticed that NC Statutes do not define "display" of firearms. And that NC state law is not preemptive of local statutes. It appears, unless I misunderstand, that counties or cities could adopt ordinances that prohibit OC, siting that OC is
"displaying" a firearm. Have you had much problem with that in NC.
ghoststan
Regular Member
imported post
if i see the no weapon sign i dont go in or leave the weapon in the car i done this for banks,restuarants that serve alcohol,and malls
if i see the no weapon sign i dont go in or leave the weapon in the car i done this for banks,restuarants that serve alcohol,and malls
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Task Force 16 wrote:
NC law is strongly preempted, but not completely so. There's some wiggle room in regards to local parks and such, and of regulating "display" of firearms.The latter issueis actually a very small one. They can't actually tell you not NOT to display it, but rather they have some leeway as far as regulating HOW you can display it. Chapel Hill, NC has done this by requiring that any openly carried firearm is at least 6 inches in length. I'm assuming this is to make sure that the gun is visible.
I think Cary, NC has tried to ban open carry, but I haven't paid much mind to that issue since I've yet to be in that area. I have yet to hear of anyone actually being arrested, though, so I don't know.
As far as practically carrying around the State, the slight lack of preemption is more of a nuisance than anything. It requires you to take a little extra time to check local ordinances when going into parks and recreational facilities, but that's about it. I have never had to steer clear of an entire town or city because of it.
All that being said, it still definitely needs to be fixed.
Task Force 16 wrote:
NC law is strongly preempted, but not completely so. There's some wiggle room in regards to local parks and such, and of regulating "display" of firearms.The latter issueis actually a very small one. They can't actually tell you not NOT to display it, but rather they have some leeway as far as regulating HOW you can display it. Chapel Hill, NC has done this by requiring that any openly carried firearm is at least 6 inches in length. I'm assuming this is to make sure that the gun is visible.
I think Cary, NC has tried to ban open carry, but I haven't paid much mind to that issue since I've yet to be in that area. I have yet to hear of anyone actually being arrested, though, so I don't know.
As far as practically carrying around the State, the slight lack of preemption is more of a nuisance than anything. It requires you to take a little extra time to check local ordinances when going into parks and recreational facilities, but that's about it. I have never had to steer clear of an entire town or city because of it.
All that being said, it still definitely needs to be fixed.
RayBurton72
Regular Member
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North Carolina is NOT a trespass state... No weapons signs ARE legally enforceable and failure to honor them is a misdemeanor... (which can lead to the revokation of a concealed carry permit.
NC GS 14-415, states:
As for requirements for the sign, simply that they are readily visible and posted on EVERY entrance.
North Carolina is NOT a trespass state... No weapons signs ARE legally enforceable and failure to honor them is a misdemeanor... (which can lead to the revokation of a concealed carry permit.
NC GS 14-415, states:
As for requirements for the sign, simply that they are readily visible and posted on EVERY entrance.
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RayBurton72 wrote:
RayBurton72 wrote:
Show me the statute that says "it shall be unlawful" to carry a firearm past a "no weapons" sign. The ONLY statute that mentions such a sign is that one I already quoted,and itsays nothing about being unlawful. On top of that, it refers specifically to concealed handguns, so even if it DID say it was unlawful, open carry of a handgun, and lawful carry of any other weapon, would STILL be legal.
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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DreQo wrote:
If a store post signage that states "NO FIREAERMS ALLOWED" I would think that it means just that. "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" does not specifiy OC or CC. It means no Firearms, period.
They may have a hard time enforcing the policy against CC'ers, because that can't see if you are carrying. But, OC'ers are going to be spotted in a heartbeat for obvious reasons.
Businesses have the right to set rules of entry into their establishments, with exception to descriminatation based on race or anything else people can't change about themselves. They have to post those rules at the entrances. I'm sure you've seen many convenience stores and restaraunts thatare posted "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". And then there are those fine dining establishments that require a "Coat and Tie". Some campgrounds and other travel accomidations don't allow pets. These are all enforcable.
I know you don't agree wth this logic, or the legalities of it, but that's life. We can't always have everything OUR WAY. We can't expect others to respect our rights if we don't respect the rights of others.
DreQo wrote:
If a store post signage that states "NO FIREAERMS ALLOWED" I would think that it means just that. "NO FIREARMS ALLOWED" does not specifiy OC or CC. It means no Firearms, period.
They may have a hard time enforcing the policy against CC'ers, because that can't see if you are carrying. But, OC'ers are going to be spotted in a heartbeat for obvious reasons.
Businesses have the right to set rules of entry into their establishments, with exception to descriminatation based on race or anything else people can't change about themselves. They have to post those rules at the entrances. I'm sure you've seen many convenience stores and restaraunts thatare posted "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". And then there are those fine dining establishments that require a "Coat and Tie". Some campgrounds and other travel accomidations don't allow pets. These are all enforcable.
I know you don't agree wth this logic, or the legalities of it, but that's life. We can't always have everything OUR WAY. We can't expect others to respect our rights if we don't respect the rights of others.
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Task Force 16 wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with property rights, and I DO understand the logic. I have already stated in this thread that a property owner has the right to ask a person to leave for ANY reason.
Example:
A store has a sign that says "No Blue Shirts". I walk in wearing a blue shirt. I may be violated the store owner's policy, but I am NOT BREAKING THE LAW. If the store owner called 911 and said "OMG the sign says no blue shirts but this guy is in here wearing a blue shirt!" the next thing the 911 operator would say is "have you asked him to leave?". I am not going to be immediately apprehended by police and arrested for walking past the sign wearing a blue shirt. Why? Because it's not illegal. The ONLY way I could get myself arrested at that point is if I refused to leave, the cops showed up, and I AGAIN refused to leave. Hell, at that point they may just drag you off the property and give you a stern warning.
Now, for those of you that may not be following, take that example and replace "blue shirt" with "gun".
I love how you used the example "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Guess what? You're absolutely right! If you walk in without shirt or shoes, you will NOT receive service! It doesn't say "Entering this establishment without wearing shirt and shoes is illegaland punishable under NC G.S. ###-##.#". Granted, the shirt-shoes policy is a health thing that restaurants are legally required to uphold, but that's something complete different.
Anyway, unless someone can show me a NC statute that says otherwise, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO VIOLATE A POLICY SIGN ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.
(I am not a lawyer, and afriendly reminder: There IS a spell check on this forum.)
Task Force 16 wrote:
I have absolutely no problem with property rights, and I DO understand the logic. I have already stated in this thread that a property owner has the right to ask a person to leave for ANY reason.
Example:
A store has a sign that says "No Blue Shirts". I walk in wearing a blue shirt. I may be violated the store owner's policy, but I am NOT BREAKING THE LAW. If the store owner called 911 and said "OMG the sign says no blue shirts but this guy is in here wearing a blue shirt!" the next thing the 911 operator would say is "have you asked him to leave?". I am not going to be immediately apprehended by police and arrested for walking past the sign wearing a blue shirt. Why? Because it's not illegal. The ONLY way I could get myself arrested at that point is if I refused to leave, the cops showed up, and I AGAIN refused to leave. Hell, at that point they may just drag you off the property and give you a stern warning.
Now, for those of you that may not be following, take that example and replace "blue shirt" with "gun".
I love how you used the example "no shirt, no shoes, no service". Guess what? You're absolutely right! If you walk in without shirt or shoes, you will NOT receive service! It doesn't say "Entering this establishment without wearing shirt and shoes is illegaland punishable under NC G.S. ###-##.#". Granted, the shirt-shoes policy is a health thing that restaurants are legally required to uphold, but that's something complete different.
Anyway, unless someone can show me a NC statute that says otherwise, IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO VIOLATE A POLICY SIGN ON PRIVATE PROPERTY.
(I am not a lawyer, and afriendly reminder: There IS a spell check on this forum.)
RayBurton72
Regular Member
imported post
All right DreQo, I will explain this as I would to a 6-year-old.
NC General Statute 14-415 (as cited earlier) states:
NC General Statute 14-415.11(c), (as cited by you) says
Since NC GS 14-415.11(c) is a section of NC GS 14-415, Violating 14-415.11(c) is a misdemeanor.
DreQo: There is a difference between knowing something is, and not having any reason to believe it is not. Please learn the difference before expounding on what the law is or is not.
And let me know where to send the plate of crow.
All right DreQo, I will explain this as I would to a 6-year-old.
NC General Statute 14-415 (as cited earlier) states:
NC General Statute 14-415.11(c), (as cited by you) says
Since NC GS 14-415.11(c) is a section of NC GS 14-415, Violating 14-415.11(c) is a misdemeanor.
DreQo: There is a difference between knowing something is, and not having any reason to believe it is not. Please learn the difference before expounding on what the law is or is not.
And let me know where to send the plate of crow.
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
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DreQo wrote:
DreQo wrote:
DreQo, you're over looking one little item here. If you continue to test a stores restrictions, they may slap an Order of Restraint on you, which will forbid you from setting foot on the property, armed or not. If you violate the OR, you're guaranteed a trip to jail. Now, I don't know how NC handles this in regards to carrying firearms, but in Tenn, If we are served with an OR it could result in revocation of our HGP which we have to have to carry in public CC or OC.
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I'll ignore your immature personal attacks, Ray,but you do need to grow up.
NC General Statute 14-415.11(c), (as cited by you) says
This statute says that the permit does not authorize you to do something. It does not say it is unlawful. It also specifically refers to a concealed handgun. I can't explain it any more simply than that. The purpose of this law is to protect personal property rights. It leaves the OPTION in the hand of the property owner.
Edited to add: Even if your incorrect analysis was valid, it would only apply to CONCEALED handguns, so open carry is completely and utterly unaffected by this law or any signs that are posted.
I'm not over looking anything. I have never been asked to leave an establishment where a sign was posted. I have entered properties, while open carrying, on multiple occasions that had various signs posted restricting weapons, WITHOUT INCIDENT. I haven't tested anyone. You're right that if you violate private property policies and refuse to leave, you could be charged with trespass and be legally restrained from entering that property again, under threat of more charges. I have not argued that. This is not what we're discussing.
You guys really need to think this through. I'm giving you all the information, and breaking it down to make it even easier to understand. I can't do any more than that for you.
I'll ignore your immature personal attacks, Ray,but you do need to grow up.
NC General Statute 14-415.11(c), (as cited by you) says
This statute says that the permit does not authorize you to do something. It does not say it is unlawful. It also specifically refers to a concealed handgun. I can't explain it any more simply than that. The purpose of this law is to protect personal property rights. It leaves the OPTION in the hand of the property owner.
Edited to add: Even if your incorrect analysis was valid, it would only apply to CONCEALED handguns, so open carry is completely and utterly unaffected by this law or any signs that are posted.
I'm not over looking anything. I have never been asked to leave an establishment where a sign was posted. I have entered properties, while open carrying, on multiple occasions that had various signs posted restricting weapons, WITHOUT INCIDENT. I haven't tested anyone. You're right that if you violate private property policies and refuse to leave, you could be charged with trespass and be legally restrained from entering that property again, under threat of more charges. I have not argued that. This is not what we're discussing.
You guys really need to think this through. I'm giving you all the information, and breaking it down to make it even easier to understand. I can't do any more than that for you.