Gangbanger logic.

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I've got a buddy at work who is my polar opposite in every way, aside from age group and occupation. He's a young black democrat from NYC, I'm a young white republican from smalltown appalachia. We love working together because we're both talkative, and we get into the best debates over everything (politics particularly). These conversations are always very friendly, and neither of us consider the other to be stupid or brainwashed simply because of the opinions we hold.

Anyway, the conversation we where having almost made me choke on my lunch. I won't post the entire conversation here (as it was rather lenghtly) but I do want to post a few of the things he'd said that almost made blood shoot out my eyes.

1) "In New York, when a dude pulls a gun on you, just give him what he wants. 'Cause, you know, he don't want to shoot nobody. Nobody wants to kill nobody, he just needs some cash, so you know, he pulls a gun for some money."

2) Just because a guy points a gun at you, don't mean nothing. I mean, if you get into a verbal argument and whatnot, sometimes a guy pulls a gun just to make you back down, try and get you to punk out. Then it adds to his street credit, you know? It's just like, a stunt to make himself look 'bad'.

3) I think carrying a gun is a bad idea, cause...I mean, if a guy pulls a gun on you, and then you pull a gun out, now there's two guns in play. And once you pull your gun it's gonna scare the dude, and he'll wind up shooting you, even if he wasn't planning on shooting you before, because now he's scared and gotta get away.

And finally (this one fried my brain as I tried to follow the logic) there was a story on the news (part of what prompted our conversation) about two gang bangers who had basically gotten into a gunfight across the street from one another, each one was armed with a 9mm 15 round pistol, they started shooting at each other until both guns were empty, then retreated. Nobody at all was hit, just the buildings and surrounding cars were riddled with bullet holes. I asked him what he thought of that. Personally I think it was stupid, but on top of that it was some p!$$ poor shooting.

His response: Well, these guys probably weren't actualy trying to kill each other. It was just a 'punk-off'. They had a problem, and neither one of them could back down, 'cause you never back down, you know what I mean? If you back down you're a punk and then you got everybody messin' with you. So a guy pulled a gun, and the other guy pulled his, but they still can't back down, so they got no other choice but to empty the gun at the other guy and hope they don't kill somebody, that way they can keep their street cred.

Wow. Just friggin' wow. My brain almost went into spasms after hearing some of this stuff. My buddy was (once upon a time) a gang banger in the bronx, and yes he lived in the projects for most of his formative years until he turned 18, so as crazy as this stuff sounds, I consider him a viable source into what goes through the minds of gang bangers. I'd never even heard the term 'street credit', aside from on TV a few times. We'd had another conversation about that at a later time.

Anyway, just thought this was some interesting insight into the mind of an anti-gunner. (And yes, this is only his side of the conversation, I did explain the facts of life to him throughout this meeting of the minds) Any thoughts?

-PS, he is slowly coming around to realizing guns arent the root of all evil. I took him and his cousin out to the range to educate them about firearms (at their request), and both are now looking forward to purchasing a pistol for home protection.

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i just returned from a trip to NY/NYC...it's a whole differnet world in the lower hudson valley. The mear mention of a gun in public can put you in a police car, not to mention the gang issues and the rap music mentality they have their.

To the hip hop culture, a gun is a status symbol, regardless if you know how to use it or not.

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frommycolddeadhands wrote:

I've got a buddy at work who is my polar opposite in every way, aside from age group and occupation. He's a young black democrat from NYC, I'm a young white republican from smalltown appalachia. We love working together because we're both talkative, and we get into the best debates over everything (politics particularly). These conversations are always very friendly, and neither of us consider the other to be stupid or brainwashed simply because of the opinions we hold.

Anyway, the conversation we where having almost made me choke on my lunch. I won't post the entire conversation here (as it was rather lenghtly) but I do want to post a few of the things he'd said that almost made blood shoot out my eyes.

1) "In New York, when a dude pulls a gun on you, just give him what he wants. 'Cause, you know, he don't want to shoot nobody. Nobody wants to kill nobody, he just needs some cash, so you know, he pulls a gun for some money." The victim may very well be willing and ready to kill someone in defense of self, family and personal wealth. That cash the gang banger "just needs" may be the victim's rent money, or the money to feed his family next week, or buy medicine for a sick spouse or child or to repair his car so he can go to work to provide for his family. The citizen may just think that because he worked hard and earned that money that he has more right to it than the gangbanger. In any case, the citizen may very well be willing to use lethal force to protect that money. What the "dude" really needs is to get off his a$$ and get a friggin' job like the rest of the world and earn his money. If he is able but not willing to do that then he is a worthless POS.

2) Just because a guy points a gun at you, don't mean nothing. I mean, if you get into a verbal argument and whatnot, sometimes a guy pulls a gun just to make you back down, try and get you to punk out. Then it adds to his street credit, you know? It's just like, a stunt to make himself look 'bad'. Means something to most everyone who is not a POS gangbanger. Someone pulls a gun on me again, I am fully prepared mentally and emotionally and hopefully physically to end that threat with lethal force.

3) I think carrying a gun is a bad idea, cause...I mean, if a guy pulls a gun on you, and then you pull a gun out, now there's two guns in play. And once you pull your gun it's gonna scare the dude, and he'll wind up shooting you, even if he wasn't planning on shooting you before, because now he's scared and gotta get away. He should be scared. Citizens are done with this crap. We are arming ourselves in record numbers to defend ourselves against these animals. We don't care about their cred or their props or their whatever street BS, we care about protecting our loved ones, and getting home safely and are ready and willing to use lethal force to ensure that is the outcome. For them it may be pride and a game, but for us it is life and death. The most dangerous animal on the planet is a cornered human fighting for his life who is willing to use whatever means necessary to survive. I'm not going to ever trust that some tweaked out gangbanger is NOT planning on murdering me or my loved ones. I'm going to do anything in my power to end such a threat with extreme prejudice as quickly as possible.

SNIP

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It really is, psychologically speaking, rather fascinating. That is solely on an intellectual level. On a human level it invokes nothing but disdain and disgust. They play dangerous and vicious games with people's lives. I have no sympathy when one of them dies by whomever's hand.

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I just think it's amazing how people can say it's okay for someone to point a gun at you because they don't want their 'street credit' to go down or whatever. I informed my buddy that in my neck of the woods his friends would have a very short lifespan if they tried pulling a stunt like that. A pointed gun, IMO, shows intent and ability to kill, and the response would be as such.

Another thing was the way his friends throw around "I'm gonna kill you!" and such things to make themselves seem tough. Again, in my neck of the woods that is considered a deadly threat, and is treated as such.

People are weird.

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1) "In New York, when a dude pulls a gun on you, just give him what he wants. 'Cause, you know, he don't want to shoot nobody. Nobody wants to kill nobody, he just needs some cash, so you know, he pulls a gun for some money."

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AS far as I'm concerned, if a Dude pulls a gun on me, he's wantin' to see somebody die. I'm gonna do my damnedest to make sure he gets a first person experience.

2) Just because a guy points a gun at you, don't mean nothing. I mean, if you get into a verbal argument and whatnot, sometimes a guy pulls a gun just to make you back down, try and get you to punk out. Then it adds to his street credit, you know? It's just like, a stunt to make himself look 'bad'.

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His little stunt will make look him bad alright. Full of bullet holes and bleeding all over the place.

3) I think carrying a gun is a bad idea, cause...I mean, if a guy pulls a gun on you, and then you pull a gun out, now there's two guns in play. And once you pull your gun it's gonna scare the dude, and he'll wind up shooting you, even if he wasn't planning on shooting you before, because now he's scared and gotta get away.

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For the gangbanger it would be a bad idea, especially since they don't take getting their own butt shot off seriously. Dead is dead, it ain't make believe.

Street Cred won't be worth squat if they're 6 feet under.

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i'm not sure how old you and your friend are, but that mentality that he's describing is NOT how things are today. ganbangers dont empty a gun on someone and "hope they dont hit someone." they play the game for real. at least here in LA, if they shoot at someone, it's to kill them, not to scare them or as some exhibition of manhood.

but i do agree that it all starts with these idiots thinking that they have something to prove. they're all terrified of looking like punks.

i was in never in a gang, but i grew up in rough parts of northern and southern california and i was around the ganster mentality all the time.

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TheCiscoKid wrote:

i'm not sure how old you and your friend are, but that mentality that he's describing is NOT how things are today. ganbangers dont empty a gun on someone and "hope they dont hit someone." they play the game for real. at least here in LA, if they shoot at someone, it's to kill them, not to scare them or as some exhibition of manhood.

but i do agree that it all starts with these idiots thinking that they have something to prove. they're all terrified of looking like punks.

i was in never in a gang, but i grew up in rough parts of northern and southern california and i was around the ganster mentality all the time.

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I've got almost zero experience with gangs and their ilk. I also don't give a hoot about street credit or rep or whatever, and to be honest anyone who pulls a gun on another person with intent to comit a crime is asking to get shot in my opinion. That aside, I just thought the contrast of world perspective was amazing.

To him a person has to run with a gang in order to be tough. In my neck of the woods if you need a gang to fight your battles you're a coward. In his area three guys jumping one guy would boost his cred and be bragging rights, in mine three against one is unfair, and the persons responsible would be shunned. He thinks that a mugger/robber is just some lost soul trying to make a living, so give 'em the cash because they're in need. I personnally am all about helping the needy, but mugger/robbers put their own life and the lives of others in jeopardy, so my sympathy for them is nil.

Again, just amazing contrasts in personal beliefs and differences in our respective societies.

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TheCiscoKid wrote:

i'm not sure how old you and your friend are, but that mentality that he's describing is NOT how things are today. ganbangers dont empty a gun on someone and "hope they dont hit someone." they play the game for real. at least here in LA, if they shoot at someone, it's to kill them, not to scare them or as some exhibition of manhood.

but i do agree that it all starts with these idiots thinking that they have something to prove. they're all terrified of looking like punks.

i was in never in a gang, but i grew up in rough parts of northern and southern california and i was around the ganster mentality all the time.

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the north east, it's different. lots of kids who think/try to be hardcore. most could not hit the broadside of a barn.

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From what I've seen in my personal experience (having never been in a gang, granted), TheCiscoKid's version of things is starting to be the predominate attitude.

Here in SF, we hear all the time about somebody shot by some MS thug while just sitting in traffic. This isn't "not backing down," it's about going out of your way to murder a person you've never met. Because "that's just how things are."

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IMHO, a gangbanger is the one threat i can see coming to pass out here. I used to be in Grafitti gangs (not violent, so to speak) where we just tagged, etc, but there is always someone trying to prove a point or get "props".

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yeahYeah wrote:

TheCiscoKid wrote:

i'm not sure how old you and your friend are, but that mentality that he's describing is NOT how things are today. ganbangers dont empty a gun on someone and "hope they dont hit someone." they play the game for real. at least here in LA, if they shoot at someone, it's to kill them, not to scare them or as some exhibition of manhood.

but i do agree that it all starts with these idiots thinking that they have something to prove. they're all terrified of looking like punks.

i was in never in a gang, but i grew up in rough parts of northern and southern california and i was around the ganster mentality all the time.

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the north east, it's different. lots of kids who think/try to be hardcore. most could not hit the broadside of a barn.

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Your post made me remember this gag ad that fooled more than a few people who wanted to ban them:

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homie sites are great. but their only foh Glox.

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He probably meant "street cred" as in "credibility."

I guess what he was saying kind of makes sense if you're in that mindset (which is to say gang "set"), but you really can't presume to know what's in the mind of someone brandishing a gun. This is not something you want to guess wrong, and I don't owe some punk "gansta" with ego problems the benefit of the doubt about the "innocence" of his motives.

-ljp

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My viewpoints have been stated here already for the most part, i.e. "not giving him the benefit of the doubt". The homies need to learn that we aren't going to take their bullshit any more! We're Americans dammit, these thugs are impeding many American's God given right to pursue happiness. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is a concept that IMO is completely foreign to homies - sacrafice. You pull a gun on me and if my family is there I have every intention in the world of ending your existence, and if I have to I will sacrafice my own life to do it. Whatever it takes to make sure that my family leaves the scene untouched!

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icode wrote:

My viewpoints have been stated here already for the most part, i.e. "not giving him the benefit of the doubt". The homies need to learn that we aren't going to take their bull@#$% any more! We're Americans dammit, these thugs are impeding many American's God given right to pursue happiness. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is a concept that IMO is completely foreign to homies - sacrafice. You pull a gun on me and if my family is there I have every intention in the world of ending your existence, and if I have to I will sacrafice my own life to do it. Whatever it takes to make sure that my family leaves the scene untouched!

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And what helps is when you live in states where the SO's believe in giving you the right to carry out that objective and will even help you do so! My local SO keeps very close tabs on all of the gangbangers and encourages citizens to carry and not to back down from these criminals.

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frommycolddeadhands wrote:

TheCiscoKid wrote:

i'm not sure how old you and your friend are, but that mentality that he's describing is NOT how things are today. ganbangers dont empty a gun on someone and "hope they dont hit someone." they play the game for real. at least here in LA, if they shoot at someone, it's to kill them, not to scare them or as some exhibition of manhood.

but i do agree that it all starts with these idiots thinking that they have something to prove. they're all terrified of looking like punks.

i was in never in a gang, but i grew up in rough parts of northern and southern california and i was around the ganster mentality all the time.

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I've got almost zero experience with gangs and their ilk. I also don't give a hoot about street credit or rep or whatever, and to be honest anyone who pulls a gun on another person with intent to comit a crime is asking to get shot in my opinion. That aside, I just thought the contrast of world perspective was amazing.

To him a person has to run with a gang in order to be tough. In my neck of the woods if you need a gang to fight your battles you're a coward. In his area three guys jumping one guy would boost his cred and be bragging rights, in mine three against one is unfair, and the persons responsible would be shunned. He thinks that a mugger/robber is just some lost soul trying to make a living, so give 'em the cash because they're in need. I personnally am all about helping the needy, but mugger/robbers put their own life and the lives of others in jeopardy, so my sympathy for them is nil.

Again, just amazing contrasts in personal beliefs and differences in our respective societies.

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/AGREES

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1) "In New York, when a dude pulls a gun on you, just give him what he wants. 'Cause, you know, he don't want to shoot nobody. Nobody wants to kill nobody, he just needs some cash, so you know, he pulls a gun for some money."

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If some "homie" pulls a gun on me, just 'cause he "needs" my money, and "don't want to shoot nobody", he's going to get a quick lesson in the proper use of deadly force.

3) I think carrying a gun is a bad idea, cause...I mean, if a guy pulls a gun on you, and then you pull a gun out, now there's two guns in play. And once you pull your gun it's gonna scare the dude, and he'll wind up shooting you, even if he wasn't planning on shooting you before, because now he's scared and gotta get away.

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Not to sound cliche, but you shouldn't pull a gun unless you're prepared to use it- right now. If I have to pull my gun, I'll certainly be prepared to use it, and if I have to pull my gun in response to someone who has already done so, I most certainly WILL use it.

As far as the gangbangers that emptied their 9mms at each other- this is the biggest reason that carrying a gun for self defense is so effective. I, like most people that take on the responsibility of defending themselves with a firearm, go to the range to practice, all the time. I have yet to see anyone there wearing gang colors. Those guys just "aquire" their weapons, and put them in their pocket or wasteband (almost never use a proper holster- dumbasses) until they use them to commit a crime. They have no idea at all how to use them properly and effectively. The vast majority of them can't hit anything at all unless they shoot from contact weapon distance.

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Slayer of Paper wrote:

They have no idea at all how to use them properly and effectively. The vast majority of them can't hit anything at all unless they shoot from contact weapon distance.

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Thank God for small favors. I on the other hand am a good shot and they better be scared:celebrate

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I agree with a lot of what the dude from New York is saying. However, seldom does it work out that way. Just like the doper robbing the 7-11 he doesn't want top kill anyoen he just wants the money and to get out of there. But when he feels like the clerk isn't resaponding fast enough it throws his plan out of whack and starts shooting.

The guys in new York just want you to give them your money and let them run. But you have to remember that their thinking isn't rational and your total complaince may not be what they are expecting so it becomes war. You also have to be aware of the East Coast vs. West Coast bangers. They are different and have different thought processes. Unfortunately down here in the South the West Coast influence has taken over and it is getting bad in certin areas. The gangs in our city and in SC can be traced directly to LA through some families that moved here to get their children away from the gangs out West. The local police have traced it down to the person, family and time. The parents are back in LA and their children are in a graveyard in SC. It didn't work out like they hoped.

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"I think carrying a gun is a bad idea, cause...I mean, if a guy pulls a gun on you, and then you pull a gun out, now there's two guns in play. And once you pull your gun it's gonna scare the dude, and he'll wind up shooting you, even if he wasn't planning on shooting you before, because now he's scared and gotta get away."

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I love this mentality :banghead:. I've heard it from so many people.

And usually when I hear a statement like the above, the person adds that a majority of folks who carry handguns for self-defense don't want or planto actuallyfire their handgun if threatened/attacked. Most handgun-owners are simply hoping to "scare" their attackers away by presenting a firearm.... which will always backfireand result in the victim either being shot first,or being disarmed andshot with their own firearm. Carrying a handgun for self-defense will always end badly for the victim, because the BG always has the initiative.

Then they'll go on about the BG running off with the victim's firearm, and use it later in the commission of other violent "gun-crimes"..... therefore, the victim is responsible for all of the BG's victims afterwards. And to wrap up this twisted train of logic, thatis the main reason why people shouldn't be allowed to carry handguns.... because they're not "trained", while LEOs are.

Even worse, I've talked to a few people who considered carrying a handgun, but said that they'd never load it because they only wanted to "scare" the BG.