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Thread: Beaver County, PA Sheriff Says No Carrying Guns Where Others Might Assemble!

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    http://www.timesonline.com/articles/...c948109432.txt

    Arrest at Obama rally sparks gun rights debate

    By Bill Vidonic, Times Staff
    Published: Saturday, September 6, 2008 11:52 PM EDT
    John Noble said he’s openly worn a handgun while attending the annual Maple Syrup Festival in Bradys Run Park.

    He’s worn it to a Bridgewater book signing.

    The Industry man said he’s never been confronted by police over his habit of wearing a holstered pistol on his waist — that is until Aug. 29.

    Noble’s arrest at the Barack Obama campaign rally at Beaver’s Irvine Park has raised questions about gun rights.

    “There was no disturbance until (law enforcement) made one,” Noble said.

    Beaver County District Attorney Anthony Berosh said the issue isn’t whether Noble was legally carrying a gun. State police said Noble did not violate the state’s open carry law, under which you don’t need a permit to carry a weapon in plain sight.

    Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

    “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

    Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally inIrvine Park.

    While Noble’s intentions might not have been sinister, Berosh said, “The people who don’t know him don’t know that.”

    Noble’s arrest at the Obama rally has set off controversy. Gun right advocates say Noble’s rights were stepped on, while others say Noble should have known better than to take a gun to a presidential campaign rally.

    Noble said he had no ill intent and that Obama’s constitutional rights didn’t take precedence over his.

    THE INCIDENT

    Noble was standing in McIntosh Park, next to Irvine Park, when people noticed that he was packing a gun in a holster and notified sheriff’s deputies.

    After a brief confrontation Noble was taken into custody, and his gun, a Glock 9mm, was confiscated. He was questioned by state police and released.

    Deputies and state police have said Noble did not threaten anyone with the gun, and it remained in his holster until it was confiscated. The gun hasn’t been returned yet.

    THE FALLOUT

    On Friday, state police charged Noble with one count each of disorderly conduct and disrupting meetings and processions.

    State police wrote in a criminal complaint that they think Noble intended to disrupt the rally, because he posted a message on a Web site just before the rally telling people to “bring their guns and Bibles.”

    State police said Noble put others around him in fear for their safety and that law enforcement agents had to abandon their posts at the Obama rally to deal with Noble.

    State police did say that Noble did not illegally possess his weapon.

    Federal authorities said they would not file charges against Noble because he did not enter Irvine Park. To do so, he would have had to pass through a metal detector.

    THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS

    Beaver County Sheriff George David said a person who is wearing a gun in a holster, out in the open, doesn’t need a license to carry that weapon.

    However, a person who wants to keep a weapon concealed on his body or carry it in a vehicle must obtain a license. Extra permission is necessary for a concealed weapon, David said, because a concealed weapon poses a greater danger to police.

    A weapon is considered concealed if it’s worn under clothing or kept in a vehicle.

    While David said he’s a gun advocate, he said Noble should not have taken the gun to the rally because of all the security present for Obama’s protection.

    “I don’t think this was the time or the place to show your rights,” David said.

    Noble’s case is not unique, however.

    According to published reports, a Louisiana man last month received a monetary settlement for his January 2006 arrest at a Baton Rouge shopping mall.

    In the incident, a police officer approached Mark Marchiafava, 55, of Baton Rouge, and asked why he was openly wearing a holstered weapon in a mall. Marchiafava replied that because he wasn’t a felon, he could legally carry a weapon in the open.

    The officer took Marchiafava into custody and charged him with a count of illegal gun possession.

    The charge was later dropped, and Marchiafava’s weapon was returned, but he sued the police department, claiming a violation of his civil rights. The terms of the settlement with the department have been sealed.

    Noble’s case has already been heavily discussed on Web sites dedicated to gun rights.

    Mike Stollenwerk, co-founder of OpenCarry.org, said Friday, “John Noble was arrested for engaging in peaceful, constitutionally protected conduct in a park open to the public, i.e., passing out fliers while carrying a handgun in a secure holster. Noble was not intoxicated, fighting, cursing, or making loud noises.”

    He also said, “Pennsylvania courts have repeatedly said that ‘the offense of disorderly conduct is not intended as catchall for every act which annoys or disturbs people,’ but the police in Noble’s case blatantly ignored the law and turned Pennsylvania’s disorderly conduct statute into a license to grab people off the street at will.”

    Berosh said, “You have a right to strike a match, unless you’re in a TNT factory.”

    Berosh also said it’s unfortunate that there’s “historical precedent” of violence at political rallies and presidential appearances, including the shootings of John F. Kennedy, his brother Robert F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan.

    In the charges filed against Noble, state police trooper Shawn Schexnaildre wrote that if witness John Atkinson hadn’t been alarmed by Noble, Atkinson wouldn’t have notified nearby officers.

    “This may be due to the fact that a political assassination is as devastating as any crime that can be committed and is nearly always committed with a gun. Either way, (Noble’s) actions, without question, created a public alarm,” Schexnaildre wrote.

    Bill Vidonic can be reached online at bvidonic@timesonline.com.

    [size=WHEN DO YOU NEED A LICENSE?][/size]

    In Pennsylvania, only those who wish to carry a concealed weapon must obtain a license.

    Statute 18 P.C.S, 6106 defines when a person is breaking the law: Any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

    The punishment for the offense would depend on what a person’s prior criminal record is.

    Source: Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes.

    [size=MAP OF SCENE][/size]

    To see a map of the scene of Noble’s arrest, created by members of PAOpenCarry.org, go to http://paopencarry.org/beaver/map.jpg (State police and the Beaver County sheriff’s department have not commented on the accuracy of the map.)

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    After reading this I again read through the Constitution and I can't find the place where it says people have a right not to be offended or alarmed. Can't find it no matter how hard I try.

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    johnsteele wrote:
    After reading this I again read through the Constitution and I can't find the place where it says people have a right not to be offended or alarmed. Can't find it no matter how hard I try.
    John,

    The founding fathers also used invisible ink. You can only see it if you hate America. For example, say your one of the 4 lunes on the USSC...then you could see it very clearly.



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    Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

    “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

    Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally inIrvine Park.

    While Noble’s intentions might not have been sinister, Berosh said, “The people who don’t know him don’t know that.”




    I also don't know where in the Constitution it says that you may only exercise one right at a time....

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    Like somebody else said, Constitutional rights are ruights asserted against government power - unless onebelieves Mr. Noble is a government agent, it was impossible for Noble to interfere in rights of assembly.

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    They are grasping at straws to justify what they've done. And it isn't very convincing.

    My guess is it won't convince a court very much either.

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    Unfortunate for Mt. Jack (I do believe that is what you all have been calling him) is in this situation, but it is a great case that can hopefully solve the OC problem for all. Just because someone is scared by the act, doesn't mean someone should be held accountable.

    The reasonable argument could be made of someone burning a flag for example. It scares me and possibly gives aid and comfort to our countries enemies that someone would do it, but it is protected as legal and I can't get them for disturbing the peace. . . Why is a flag protected but a firearm not?

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    Theseus wrote:
    Unfortunate for Mt. Jack (I do believe that is what you all have been calling him) is in this situation, but it is a great case that can hopefully solve the OC problem for all. Just because someone is scared by the act, doesn't mean someone should be held accountable.

    The reasonable argument could be made of someone burning a flag for example. It scares me and possibly gives aid and comfort to our countries enemies that someone would do it, but it is protected as legal and I can't get them for disturbing the peace. . . Why is a flag protected but a firearm not?
    You can be rest assured that my United StatesFlag is protected, It'll be a sorry day for all involved if someone chose to pull the flag from my flag pole and burn it in my yard.. I'll definitely be in jail in short order the day I'm present when U.S. citizen or not burns a flag in my presence. I just ain't gonna stand by and watch it happen, freedom of speech can be spoken or written, if someone thinks they can act out their freedom of speech by burning the American/Christian/or even a P.O.W. flag in my presence, then they'll get to see me act out my freedom of speech also !

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    Mike wrote:
    Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

    “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

    Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally inIrvine Park.
    Isn't this a contradiction? Berosh says that no right preempts another, but also indicates that the "right to assemble [...] without fear" preempts the right to bear arms.

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    Tosta Dojen wrote:
    Mike wrote:
    Instead, Berosh said, it’s a battle between two constitutional rights: The right to bear arms and the right to assemble peaceably and without fear.

    “No constitutional right pre-empts the other,” Berosh said.

    Berosh said Noble did not have the right to alarm anyone around him attending the Barack Obama rally inIrvine Park.
    Isn't this a contradiction? Berosh says that no right preempts another, but also indicates that the "right to assemble [...] without fear" preempts the right to bear arms.
    So according to Barosh, my rights are at the mercy of some wimp. What a moron. This case cries out for a lawsuit.

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    Suppose I'm a Wiccan and crosses alarm me, given the whole Salem thing. Can the police arrest someone wearing or holding a cross and handing out Christian literature near a gathering of Wiccans, and charge them with "disorderly conduct?" Don't the Wiccans have a "right" to assemble "without fear?"

    What a maroon.

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    mvpel wrote:
    Suppose I'm a Wiccan and crosses alarm me, given the whole Salem thing. Can the police arrest someone wearing or holding a cross and handing out Christian literature near a gathering of Wiccans, and charge them with "disorderly conduct?" Don't the Wiccans have a "right" to assemble "without fear?"

    What a maroon.
    yes wiccans do have the right to assemble witout fear but they are not allowed to have their religious symbols on their head stones in arlington national cemetary.

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    The cops openlyhad guns and no one was "alarmed". The SS alsohad guns and still no one was "alarmed". So why is it "alarming" for a law abiding citizen to openlypack agun?

    What's the difference? Considering the not sosavoryrecord that cops and Federal agents have racked up in the last 25 years I'd feel safer with armed honest citizens around me than any of them. With my fellow citizensIknow I wont get beaten, tased, maced, or shot for no justifiable reason.


    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    Seems to be a running theme, only time there is a "public disturbance" with a man open carrying it is the police causing the disturbance.

    The citizen seems to mind their own business - only to be disturbed by some rogue LEO

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    “I don’t think this was the time or the place to show your rights,” David said.
    "You vill only show your rights veen ve tell you to, how ve tell you to, and be glad you have that! Mein fuhrer is coming, and ve must not scare away his faithful followers! Now be gone.....schnell!"

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    Carnivore wrote
    You can be rest assured that my United StatesFlag is protected, It'll be a sorry day for all involved if someone chose to pull the flag from my flag pole and burn it in my yard.. I'll definitely be in jail in short order the day I'm present when U.S. citizen or not burns a flag in my presence. I just ain't gonna stand by and watch it happen, freedom of speech can be spoken or written, if someone thinks they can act out their freedom of speech by burning the American/Christian/or even a P.O.W. flag in my presence, then they'll get to see me act out my freedom of speech also !

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF2iX2VG6e4

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    Where did Obama make his speach? What building?
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


    The statements made in this post do not necessarily reflect the views of OCDO or its members.

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    Funny, I don't remember the "without fear" clause in the peaceable assembly part of the 1st amendment...

    And when is the time and place to show your "rights," if they require prior approval?

    -ljp


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    Perhaps he's thinking of that Norman Rockwell painting, not the Constitutional Law class which it sounds like he slept through.



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    Carnivore wrote:
    Theseus wrote:
    Unfortunate for Mt. Jack (I do believe that is what you all have been calling him) is in this situation, but it is a great case that can hopefully solve the OC problem for all. Just because someone is scared by the act, doesn't mean someone should be held accountable.

    The reasonable argument could be made of someone burning a flag for example. It scares me and possibly gives aid and comfort to our countries enemies that someone would do it, but it is protected as legal and I can't get them for disturbing the peace. . . Why is a flag protected but a firearm not?
    You can be rest assured that my United StatesFlag is protected, It'll be a sorry day for all involved if someone chose to pull the flag from my flag pole and burn it in my yard.. I'll definitely be in jail in short order the day I'm present when U.S. citizen or not burns a flag in my presence. I just ain't gonna stand by and watch it happen, freedom of speech can be spoken or written, if someone thinks they can act out their freedom of speech by burning the American/Christian/or even a P.O.W. flag in my presence, then they'll get to see me act out my freedom of speech also !
    Can I burn my own US flag in front of you? I understand if someone stole your flag and burned it, But why can't I burn mine (Fire laws not withstanding.)
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    Theseus wrote:
    Unfortunate for Mt. Jack (I do believe that is what you all have been calling him) is in this situation, but it is a great case that can hopefully solve the OC problem for all. Just because someone is scared by the act, doesn't mean someone should be held accountable.

    The reasonable argument could be made of someone burning a flag for example. It scares me and possibly gives aid and comfort to our countries enemies that someone would do it, but it is protected as legal and I can't get them for disturbing the peace. . . Why is a flag protected but a firearm not?
    You can be rest assured that my United StatesFlag is protected, It'll be a sorry day for all involved if someone chose to pull the flag from my flag pole and burn it in my yard.. I'll definitely be in jail in short order the day I'm present when U.S. citizen or not burns a flag in my presence. I just ain't gonna stand by and watch it happen, freedom of speech can be spoken or written, if someone thinks they can act out their freedom of speech by burning the American/Christian/or even a P.O.W. flag in my presence, then they'll get to see me act out my freedom of speech also !
    Can I burn my own US flag in front of you? I understand if someone stole your flag and burned it, But why can't I burn mine (Fire laws not withstanding.)
    Well, to me a flag is a symbol and nothing more. To me the flag is about as useless as my wedding ring. Burning the flag won't destroy America or the spirit that this country embodies. That and the fact that most of our flags are made in China....

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    They cite the assasinations of former presidents as well as the attempt on Reagan's life as a reason to be extra careful. Can anyone tell me when any government official from any country has been assasinated by a citizen legally and openly carrying a handgun?


    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    PrayingForWar wrote:
    Can anyone tell me when any government official from any country has been assasinated by a citizen legally and openly carrying a handgun?

    Not to my knowledge. But there have been instances where government offials have been killed by either members of their own security forces or by other government officials.

    A few examples.

    Park Chung-hee, President of South Korea. gunned down by the director of theKCIA (Korean Central Intelligence Agency)in 1979.

    Jose Santos Guardiola, President of Honduras. Assassinated by his personal bodyguardin 1862.

    Carlos Castillo Armas, President of Guatamala. Assassinanted by a palace guard in 1957.

    Maybe the SS should be looking closely at their own members and/or cabinet members instead of worrying about honest citizens openlyexercising their rights. Those same citizens could very well deter any would be assassins.





    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    “I don’t think this was the time or the place to show your rights,” David said.


    I think now is the time and the place for everyone to use his right to petition the government for redress of grievances.

    Contact information for the Sheriff of Beaver County:

    Telephone:
    (724) 728-3934 x11243

    Fax:
    (724) 728-2412

    Snail mail:
    810 Third Street
    Beaver, PA 15009


    Let these filthy tyrants know what you think about having a "time" and "place" restriction on your rights.

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    Venator wrote:
    Carnivore wrote:
    Theseus wrote:
    Unfortunate for Mt. Jack (I do believe that is what you all have been calling him) is in this situation, but it is a great case that can hopefully solve the OC problem for all. Just because someone is scared by the act, doesn't mean someone should be held accountable.

    The reasonable argument could be made of someone burning a flag for example. It scares me and possibly gives aid and comfort to our countries enemies that someone would do it, but it is protected as legal and I can't get them for disturbing the peace. . . Why is a flag protected but a firearm not?
    You can be rest assured that my United StatesFlag is protected, It'll be a sorry day for all involved if someone chose to pull the flag from my flag pole and burn it in my yard.. I'll definitely be in jail in short order the day I'm present when U.S. citizen or not burns a flag in my presence. I just ain't gonna stand by and watch it happen, freedom of speech can be spoken or written, if someone thinks they can act out their freedom of speech by burning the American/Christian/or even a P.O.W. flag in my presence, then they'll get to see me act out my freedom of speech also !
    Can I burn my own US flag in front of you? I understand if someone stole your flag and burned it, But why can't I burn mine (Fire laws not withstanding.)
    Yes you may burn your own personal flag in front of me, in all reality I must accept that you truely do have that right.. You may also wrap your entire family in that flag as you light it and rid my presence of your politically correct bassackwards idealogy that most likely has at this point been implanted into their minds also.. take the pictures of your Grandparents/Parents/Childrenand if you've lived long enough to have grandchildren and when you set them on fire, make sure you have one real good strong piss urge in your body left to piss the fire out, because those things I just mentioned too are just symbols of your loved ones, they won't really disappear and burn and drown in human piss just because you acted it out !!



    signed

    with Love your fellow American..


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