VA alcohol clarification

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chris in va wrote:

The thing is, you can drive over to WV and carry concealed in an alcohol serving restaurant.

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someone please correct me if i am wrong. Back in the days before we got "shall Issue" permits you could carry concealed in an ABC establishment. If i recall correctly the "restaraunt ban" was thrown in as a last minute addttion to the current "shall issue" statute.

The reason OC is the order of the day for ABC restraunts in VAis that it is the only legal carry method available to every citizen. The citizens called police and commonwealth attorneys are allowed to carry concealed in ABC restraunts.

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TexasNative wrote:

hsmith wrote:

J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

...

Where, you must be carrying concealed to be charged with any firearm related offense. So, if you are going to get blitzed and carry, OC... JK!!!

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Ah, the joys of interpreting laws!

I disagree with your interpretation here. Notice that the carrying phrase doesn't say anything about concealment, only the permit phrase. So it seems to me that if you have been issued a Concealed Handgun Permit and then get drunk while OC in a public place, you've just committed a Class 1 misdemeanor.

And even if I'm wrong, that's how I'm gonna act since it has a better chance of keeping me out of the hoosegow.

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Texas - you are missing the crucial word in the statute that gives it its meaning - "such"

"Such" handgun refers to the type of handgun, or more specifically, the manner in which it is carried byan individual with a CHP- a concealed handgun.

Try this, take our "concealed" and replace it with "purple". Now read the statute -

J1. Any person permitted to carry apurple handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.


The phrase isnt "any person carrying a gun", its any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is carrying what? a concealed handgun. That means that if you have a permit and are openly carrying, you are not violating this statute by drinking. Its not advisable as other have stated, but its not illegal either. I know that there is an individual here who has already tested this in court and won. I'm sure that they will speak up if they see this thread.

One of the more important classes that we teach is the class on Virginia laws because they are truly a mess. One word, like "such" can change the meaning of the statute and its easy for the average citizen (and LEO as well) to misinterpret the meaning of the statute. There's a number of Va. laws like this.

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Purple isn't a very good substitute for concealed, because it describes the handgun directly, rather than the manner in which it's carried.

Neither of us can state categorically whether or not "such gun" carries the "concealed" description with it, because that would have to be settled by case law (have any?) As I said before, I choose to follow the safer route and avoid being the test case.

At any rate, what you state as fact is actually your opinion, as is mine, PS. Once again, I have to say that I think when you and others put forth your opinion as settled law when it is anything but that, you can mislead some newer folks who'll just trust what you say. And it's for that reason that I take the counter position. Not (just) because I like to be argumentative , but also to provoke folks to consider all sides of the issue, and not just depend on someone's potentially faulty opinion.

~ Boyd

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TexasNative wrote:

Purple isn't a very good substitute for concealed, because it describes the handgun directly, rather than the manner in which it's carried.

Neither of us can state categorically whether or not "such gun" carries the "concealed" description with it, because that would have to be settled by case law (have any?) As I said before, I choose to follow the safer route and avoid being the test case.

At any rate, what you state as fact is actually your opinion, as is mine, PS. Once again, I have to say that I think when you and others put forth your opinion as settled law when it is anything but that, you can mislead some newer folks who'll just trust what you say. And it's for that reason that I take the counter position. Not (just) because I like to be argumentative , but also to provoke folks to consider all sides of the issue, and not just depend on someone's potentially faulty opinion.

~ Boyd

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Boyd -

I used purple simply as an adjective to describe the gun, nothing more.

I appreciate your stance and don't take it as being argumentative. I can tell you that during my time in LE, I have seen this case in court before and I can state without hesitation that "such" refers to "concealed" in this statute. I dont have specific case laws by name to cite, but I do recall the facts of the cases perfectly.

As I stated earlier, there is a gentleman who I believe has posted here before. Forgive me for not recalling his name. I met him earlier this year during a VCDL meeting where I first heard his story and read about it a second time either here or in a VCDL alert. Anyway, as I recall the story, he was openly carrying a revolver in the city of Richmond and stopped at some type of sidewalk cafe for a beer while waiting for a bus. He was detained by RPD and charged and when it went to court, it was determined that he had broken no law because he was openly carrying. I'm sure that others here familar with the story can chime in and validate this. Perhaps the gentleman himself will come forward and tell the story. Those of you with better search habits than I may be able to track down the story here.

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chris in va wrote:

The thing is, you can drive over to WV and carry concealed in an alcohol serving restaurant.

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Virginans should have that option and maybe we will after King Kaine is gone and hopefully forgotten.

Yata hey

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67GT390FB wrote:

someone please correct me if i am wrong. Back in the days before we got "shall Issue" permits you could carry concealed in an ABC establishment. If i recall correctly the "restaraunt ban" was thrown in as a last minute addttion to the current "shall issue" statute.

The reason OC is the order of the day for ABC restraunts in VAis that it is the only legal carry method available to every citizen. The citizens called police and commonwealth attorneys are allowed to carry concealed in ABC restraunts.

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I can personally attest to the old law (before Shall Issue) allowing CC in restaurants as that was the only way I carried when I went out back then.

Yata hey

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ProShooter wrote

Texas - you are missing the crucial word in the statute that gives it its meaning - "such"

"Such" handgun refers to the type of handgun, or more specifically, the manner in which it is carried byan individual with a CHP- a concealed handgun.

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Quite right - "Such" in this case is an adjective modifying the noun handgun and the applicable definition is "having a quality just specified." Q.E.D. in this case a concealed handgun.

It really becomes a moot point though as this statute has no validity on private property not open to the public or if you are OCing and not under the influence.

I strongly suspect that this law is a carry over from the earlier days when a permit holder could CC in an ABC-on restaurant. Today, IMO, the only valid person(s) that might be charged under this statute (presuming that you are not illegally CCing) are LEOs or Commonwealth Attorneys who might bend their elbow too much.

Yata hey

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ProShooter wrote:

snip.....
I can tell you that during my time in LE..........

.....Anyway, as I recall the story, he was openly carrying a revolver in the city of Richmond and stopped at some type of sidewalk cafe for a beer while waiting for a bus. He was detained by RPD and charged and when it went to court, it was determined that he had broken no law because he was openly carrying. I'm sure that others here familar with the story can chime in and validate this.......

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I was not aware that your LE experience encompassed any in the State of Virginia or day-to-day dealings with the applicable statutes. Apparently I stand corrected. This is the case right?

The case in point has not been resolved and is still pending. The individual involved does not desire notoriety due to his employement. I am reasonably confident that when it is heard, the decision will be in his favor however.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

snip.....
I can tell you that during my time in LE..........

.....Anyway, as I recall the story, he was openly carrying a revolver in the city of Richmond and stopped at some type of sidewalk cafe for a beer while waiting for a bus. He was detained by RPD and charged and when it went to court, it was determined that he had broken no law because he was openly carrying. I'm sure that others here familar with the story can chime in and validate this.......

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I was not aware that your LE experience encompassed any in the State of Virginia or day-to-day dealings with the applicable statutes. Apparently I stand corrected. This is the case right?

The case in point has not been resolved and is still pending. The individual involved does not desire notoriety due to his employement. I am reasonably confident that when it is heard, the decision will be in his favor however.

Yata hey

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I spent 10 years in LE here in Virginia with both Henrico and Chesterfield Counties from 1997-2007. I spent, many, many hours (years) standing in General District and Circuit courtrooms hearing criminal cases as well as the arrests that I initiated myself in both on duty and off duty employment.

I understand if that individual wants to maintain his privacy. I thought that the case I remember reading about had been dismissed in district court.

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ProShooter wrote:

I spent 10 years in LE here in Virginia with both Henrico and Chesterfield Counties from 1997-2007. I spent, many, many hours (years) standing in General District and Circuit courtrooms hearing criminal cases as well as the arrests that I initiated myself in both on duty and off duty employment.

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Appreciate the clarification. You know of some of the problems from both sides of the fence then.

You might appreciate reading of a recent event if you haven't already.
http://tinyurl.com/3nqbjf
No resolution to this one yet either.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

I spent 10 years in LE here in Virginia with both Henrico and Chesterfield Counties from 1997-2007. I spent, many, many hours (years) standing in General District and Circuit courtrooms hearing criminal cases as well as the arrests that I initiated myself in both on duty and off duty employment.

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Appreciate the clarification. You know of some of the problems from both sides of the fence then.

You might appreciate reading of a recent event if you haven't already.
http://tinyurl.com/3nqbjf
No resolution to this one yet either.

Yata hey

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Yes, I'm quite familar with both sides of the issues that folks have. Sometimes it is difficult to watch situations unfold in these threads because things are not always black and white. Not everyone knows the law, or interprets law the same way, or handles things as they should be handled.

I followed the thread regarding C'field and even know some of the folks involved. As I always tell my students, its your responsibility to know the laws that pertain to you and carrying your firearmbecause sometimes LEO's do not, and that is not alwaystheirfault. You cant know every law by heart. That is why all LEO'scarry a codebook or have the Magistrate's phone number on speed dial.

Coming from 2 years 'on the job' in NJ, no one in NJ except cops or criminals carry handguns. When I came down here, the concept of open carry and CHP's was very, very foreign. It takes alot of getting used to when you see the average joe packing. Often times cops here will be unfamilar with a law and will make adecision based on the fact that a gun can kill you and they want to go home at the end of the night. Trying to determine the value of a stolen tv set to see if its petit larcent or grand larceny doesnt have the potential to threaten someone's life so you have all the time in the world with reading that statute. When it comes to guns, cops sometimes make a decision based on safety rather than legality. They'd rather be wrong and live to tell about it then be dead, plain and simple.....sometimes their interpretation of the law and the actions they take are correct, and sometimes they are not.

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Here is my feeling.. it HURTS our cause. I hold many OC dinners to help our cause and get folks together. If I hold an event and you plan on OC and having an adult drink... consider yourself NOT INVITED to my event. Go do it on your own somewhere.

Thanks in advance.

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ProShooter wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

You might appreciate reading of a recent event if you haven't already.
http://tinyurl.com/3nqbjf
No resolution to this one yet either.

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snip....
I followed the thread regarding C'field and even know some of the folks involved.

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That is a very interesting comment Kemo Sabe.

You see I intentionally have refrained from naming anyone involved directly with the problem. Neither the desk officer nor the Sgt. with whom I had several conversations has been mentioned by name.

Rumors/scuttlebutt move more quickly than official response (of course they do) apparently because I have not been graced with even an acknowledgement of receipt of my letter to CCPD yet.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

Grapeshot wrote:

You might appreciate reading of a recent event if you haven't already.
http://tinyurl.com/3nqbjf
No resolution to this one yet either.

Click to expand...

snip....
I followed the thread regarding C'field and even know some of the folks involved.

Click to expand...

That is a very interesting comment Kemo Sabe.

You see I intentionally have refrained from naming anyone involved directly with the problem. Neither the desk officer nor the Sgt. with whom I had several conversations has been mentioned by name.

Rumors/scuttlebutt move more quickly than official response (of course they do) apparently because I have not been graced with even an acknowledgement of receipt of my letter to CCPD yet.

Yata hey

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I know of the officer that you spoke with at lunch (Peoples). I dont know him all that well, but I know who he is. I'm glad that he gave you the correct information. As far as rumors/scuttlebut, I'm the last guy that would hear any of that. I dont involve myself in the 'day to day' anymore......

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trx680 wrote:

this is how drunk people shoot guns !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0

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THAT VIDEO WAS AWESOME! I think he needs to work on his gun control though!

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ed wrote:

Here is my feeling.. it HURTS our cause. I hold many OC dinners to help our cause and get folks together. If I hold an event and you plan on OC and having an adult drink... consider yourself NOT INVITED to my event. Go do it on your own somewhere.

Thanks in advance.

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Timeout....isn't the fight against prohibiting someone from doing something legal the main reason many people belong to this forum. Doesn't your post do exactly what you codemn others for doing?:what:

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Infidel wrote:

trx680 wrote:

this is how drunk people shoot guns !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lzri8dn7p0

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THAT VIDEO WAS AWESOME! I think he needs to work on his gun control though!

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Have to suspect this is staged, a set up. Empty range, no such thing (to my knowledge) as a .60 cal and his lack of any true grip had to be intentional + had camera rolling and waiting for his "accident."

On the other hand a S&W500 - .50 cal - is not that hard to control.
http://tinyurl.com/4gjepj

Just my thoughts.

Yata hey

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bayboy42 wrote:

ed wrote:

Here is my feeling.. it HURTS our cause. I hold many OC dinners to help our cause and get folks together. If I hold an event and you plan on OC and having an adult drink... consider yourself NOT INVITED to my event. Go do it on your own somewhere.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Timeout....isn't the fight against prohibiting someone from doing something legal the main reason many people belong to this forum. Doesn't your post do exactly what you codemn others for doing?:what:

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Yes he is and thats his right. If you want to open carry and have a drink with dinner on your own time fine. If you want to attend a dinner organized by Ed then don't order a drink.

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67GT390FB wrote:

bayboy42 wrote:

ed wrote:

Here is my feeling.. it HURTS our cause. I hold many OC dinners to help our cause and get folks together. If I hold an event and you plan on OC and having an adult drink... consider yourself NOT INVITED to my event. Go do it on your own somewhere.

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Timeout....isn't the fight against prohibiting someone from doing something legal the main reason many people belong to this forum. Doesn't your post do exactly what you codemn others for doing?:what:

Click to expand...

Yes he is and thats his right. If you want to open carry and have a drink with dinner on your own time fine. If you want to attend a dinner organized by Ed then don't order a drink.

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That's EXACTLY how I feel. I will support your LEGAL right to have a beer, glass of wine with dinner, etc. with your meal if you choose to do it. Even though I support your right to do so, I don't condone the action. If I see someone at lunch tomorrow having a beer while OC.. will I ask them to leave? No. Will I talk to them about their choice to do so and how they might be representing others.. maybe.. but.. this lunch tomorrow was not an event I set up.

If we all agreed here on everything.. we would not have any forum at all and we would all carry 1911's. :-D

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Part of what some of us do in being proactive is to try to get maximum mileage out of our efforts. It is not about being in your face and pushing "Its my right" or even its my priviledge - whether referring to OC, CC or drinking. Public image, public relations can be positive or negative.

These events, where alcohol is discouraged, are merely an extention of that thinking.

I'm not going to debate the legality of drinking nor why you may feel that you or others should be permitted to do so. We have some unwritten rules of conduct to which we subscribe and its okay if these aren't to the standard to which you subscribe. But when it's our party.......end of story.

If you were to plan, organize, post and schedule an event where drinking was allowed, permitted, ignored and a problem occured - I promise not to say I told you so.

Yata hey