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Thread: Bigger is not always better

  1. #1
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    I know that I am going to ruffle some feathers and raise some eyebrows with what I am about to tell youbut. I am a retired Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff. What I am about to says is backed up by FBI statistics,personal observations and information supplied by other professionals. Over my 20 year career I was repeatedly asked, "what is the best firearm for home and self defense". Not wanting to supply anyone with bad information I did my research. Below is the results.

    During my research, what constantly came out on top was a quality, high capacity,semi auto, utilizingquality 22 caliber hollow point ammunition. Here is the reasoning behind the choice. Several years ago the FBI did a survey on persons killed by a firearm. The results of that survey was that more persons were killed by the 22 long rifle cartridge than all other calibers combined. I took a trip to the coroner's office and talked with the doctors. What they told me only confirmed what I had already learned. Large cailber handgun bullets do not always make the massive wounds we expect them to do because of the lower volocities of the bullets. The 22 on the ofter hand has a tendency to, because of light bullet weigh, to bounce off of tissue and make several passes through the interior of the body. Further more the 22 hollow point is more likely to expand because of their construction and the fact that the bullet is more likely to exit the barrel in excess of 1100fps. I have personally handled 2 murders and 4 suicides. We can discount the murders because one was strangled and the other was killed with a knife. All 4 suicides were with a single shot from a 22. The only woman shot herself in the stomach an inch above the navel with a revolver. One of the males shot himself in the chest, with a rifle,just above the heart. The last 2 males both shot themselves in the head using small pocket sized autos. Now I could go on and on spouting facts but I am sure you get the picture.

    I want to leave you with more reasons for the 22. Most persons that rarely shoot, (most of the public), are afraid of the recoil of a larger caliber pistol and therefore are likely not to practice with their weapon. The ammo for a 22 is less costly. A brick of 22's cost at or less than the price one on box of another caliber which also promotes more practicing. Shot placement bests bullet diameter every time. When you practice try this. Place 2 shots in the chest followed by 2 to the head and when you practice slow down and go for accuracy, speed will come later. Practice at 21 ft., satistics have proved that most gun fights happen at that distance or less.





























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    I understand the concept. It's the same as the 5.56. I've seen an entry hole in the high chest area, with an exit hole out of the left butt cheek.

    My theory is that I'm more concerned with KNOCKING thefire out of a target, while putting a large bleed holein the target, Effectively bringing the target to a STOP.

    This is whyI chose the 40 S&W Calibered Handgun.

    Thanks for shedding some light on the .22LR.

    Below is whyI chose the .40 as the most effective round.

    .22 produces - Energy of 86 foot-pounds for a 32 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    9mm produces - Energy of 309 foot-pounds for a 115 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    .40 S&W - Energy of 543 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1150 fps.

    .45 ACP - Energy of 422 foot-pounds for a 200 grain bullet at 975 fps.

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    I have read a lot of the stuff you have mentioned and it really is interesting, but I do have an issue with it.

    While a .22lr might bounce around and tear up insides effectively, it is much less likely to STOP a determined attacker before he can cause serious bodily harm or death.

    I have never questioned the lethality of a .22lr round, they can be incredibly deadly under the right circumstances and with proper placement, but the trauma caused by say a .45 (or 13 of them) is much more likely to STOP an attacker before he works his violence.

    Remember, we are shooting to STOP ASAP, not shooting to kill.

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    The main reason I wouldn't recommend a .22 for defense is that the mass-produced rimfire cartridges often have duds and most semi-auto .22s I've encountered aren't as reliable as centerfire alternatives.

    Also,the penetration isn't all that great.Reaching the vital organs is what is needed. It might be sufficient many times, but will it be able to do so if the target is "well-insulated?" The expansioncaused by the hollow-point may further reducepenetration.



    I would think a .22 revolver would be a better choice than a semi-auto for purposes of defense if you were set on the .22lr cartridge. If you get a dud you can skip right past it.

    Because of the rimmed cases, its harder to put as many in a magazine asyou can withrimless ammunition. Most semi-auto .22 pistols only hold 10 rounds. You can also easily find .22 revolvers that hold 10 rounds.

    I do agree though, that with the price of .22lr one could become quite proficient with it on a limited budget.


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    I would love to shoot/OC this beauty!
    http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...mp;isFirearm=Y

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    grampayeehaa wrote:
    ..... Several years ago the FBI did a survey on persons killed by a firearm. The results of that survey was that more persons were killed by the 22 long rifle cartridge than all other calibers combined........


    I have a friend that is currently FBI and former OSI and he confirms that this is true.





    grampayeehaa wrote:
    ...... The 22 on the ofter hand has a tendency to, because of light bullet weigh, to bounce off of tissue and make several passes through the interior of the body......




    I have read this from several sources. The .22 LR in a small handgun is reported to be the choice of assassins world wide.





    grampayeehaa wrote:
    ...... Most persons that rarely shoot, (most of the public), are afraid of the recoil of a larger caliber pistol and therefore are likely not to practice with their weapon......




    I first carried a .22 LR Auto and I practiced a LOT. I have 2 of them and each has somewhere around 10,000 rounds through it. I got very good.





    grampayeehaa wrote:
    ..... A brick of 22's cost at or less than the price one on box of another caliber which also promotes more practicing......




    We all know this is true.





    grampayeehaa wrote:
    .....Shot placement bests bullet diameter every time........




    This is also true.





    grampayeehaa wrote:
    .......Place 2 shots in the chest followed by 2 to the head and when you practice slow down and go for accuracy, speed will come later. Practice at 21 ft., satistics have proved that most gun fights happen at that distance or less.




    I practice 2 shots to the head first and he is right about the 21 Feet.





    BUT What he doesn't address is the fact that the most common caliber in the country is the .22LR by way far and that is the real basis for the statistic.

    It is also the most common caliber owned by gang bangers and they represent most of the handgun fatalities. They buy it because it is cheap.

    I believe all should learn to shoot a hand gun by shooting a .22.



    When you are good and comfortable you can graduate up to a caliber that you can maintain your accuracy with and handle the recoil for and that will give you some real stopping power.

    I still have a .22LR Auto as a BUG, but I carry either a .45 ACP or a .357 Magnum as my personal defense weapon



    Tarzan

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    Thank you Tarzan, you got the message. While the 22 is not the choice for everyone, my intentions were to assist those first time shooters. Start some one out on a heavy recoilling handgun and it will be very doughtful if they will ever become perficiant.

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    What about the 5.7mm? Anything on that? I think this will put up the line between slow and heavy vs fast and light. I have the FiveseveN and will be picking up the XD subcompact .40 for concealed carry.

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    .22 will most definitely kill someone, no doubt about it. But how quickly will that happen? Gang members and assassins probably don't care about stopping the person right now.....they have no issues with letting them live long enough to suffer until they die. I, on the other hand, want someone to drop RIGHT NOW if I happen to put a round in them, because if I do so, it will be in the gravest situation of kill or be killed....and I don't want to give them a chance to make sure I die with them. So thanks, but I'll keep carrying my .45.

    I most definitely wouldn't make fun of anyone carrying a .22 for self defense......but I would try to encourage them to find something a bit bigger for daily carry. If you need to use your weapon in self defense, it will be quick, it will be violent, and you will NOT have the time to shoot someone in a controlled, aimed matter. You will pull and fire for COM, and keep firing until the threat is stopped......the quickest way to stop that threat in close quarters, unaimed fire is with the largest round you can comfortably carry and shoot.......a .22 will kill someone, but it most likely will not STOP someone.

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    The 'FiveseveN' is simply too expensive to ever arrive at any great market share.

    -ljp

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    Legba wrote:
    The 'FiveseveN' is simply too expensive to ever arrive at any great market share.

    -ljp
    And the 5.7x28 round, in both the P90 and FiveSeven pistol, is slightly bigger, but less powerful than the 5.56x45, which has already had issues with reliably stopping an attacker. Anythingaround a .22is a varmint round and is usually classified as such.....the biggest thing about the 5.7 round is that it is armor piercing.....well, so are many rifle rounds, but that doesn't make them revolutionary in and of themselves. The P90 and FiveSeven are interesting and cool weapons.....but the ammo they are chambered for is DOA IMHO........

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    Well... they aren't armor piercing. Civilians (like me) can get the SS197SR which has the plastic tip and is basically a Hornady varmit bullet. We can also get SS195LF which is a hollow-tip (non expanding) which doesn't have the plastic tip. I believe this is the one more likely to "stop the threat", but not sure how effective it is. This particular one does not penetrate Lv3 armor, despite claims by some gun grabbers that it will. I bought this gun because of the wow factor, plus it shoots easy with almost no recoil. Well designed too, with the safety where your index finger goes right below the slide, so when I pull it out from my holster (Serpa Lv2), my finger is already on the safety. Its light too...

    Any real data or situations where this particular size has worked and not worked? I'm sure because of the cost, it isn't in widespread usage, but I'd be interested in finding out.

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    I also have the FN 5.7 for cc and oc. It grips well in my large hands. I also found out in the Seattle area a BG got hit in the chest with 5.7 bullet and went done instantly.

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    I have attended numerous autopsies in my career as a consultant to the Medical Examiner. The gunshot wounds I have seen were predominantly minor caliber; .22, .32, .380, and .38 Special. However that was due to the "popularity" of those calibers in the region, not their effectiveness at stopping the threat. Yes the BG or victim ended up dead, but in a lot of cases not immediately.

    Conversely, I have seen a number ofmajor caliber (.357, 9mm, .40, and .45)GSWs in the ER that should have killed the person but didn't. In some of those cases, the threat was stopped with the first round but the BG or victim lived.

    The relationship of calibre to death is not the statistic to examine.

    R/

    DocV

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    grampayeehaa wrote:
    I know that I am going to ruffle some feathers and raise some eyebrows with what I am about to tell youbut. I am a retired Los Angeles County Deputy Sheriff. What I am about to says is backed up by FBI statistics,personal observations and information supplied by other professionals. Over my 20 year career I was repeatedly asked, "what is the best firearm for home and self defense". Not wanting to supply anyone with bad information I did my research. Below is the results.

    During my research, what constantly came out on top was a quality, high capacity,semi auto, utilizingquality 22 caliber hollow point ammunition. Here is the reasoning behind the choice. Several years ago the FBI did a survey on persons killed by a firearm. The results of that survey was that more persons were killed by the 22 long rifle cartridge than all other calibers combined. I took a trip to the coroner's office and talked with the doctors. What they told me only confirmed what I had already learned. Large cailber handgun bullets do not always make the massive wounds we expect them to do because of the lower volocities of the bullets. The 22 on the ofter hand has a tendency to, because of light bullet weigh, to bounce off of tissue and make several passes through the interior of the body. Further more the 22 hollow point is more likely to expand because of their construction and the fact that the bullet is more likely to exit the barrel in excess of 1100fps. I have personally handled 2 murders and 4 suicides. We can discount the murders because one was strangled and the other was killed with a knife. All 4 suicides were with a single shot from a 22. The only woman shot herself in the stomach an inch above the navel with a revolver. One of the males shot himself in the chest, with a rifle,just above the heart. The last 2 males both shot themselves in the head using small pocket sized autos. Now I could go on and on spouting facts but I am sure you get the picture.

    I want to leave you with more reasons for the 22. Most persons that rarely shoot, (most of the public), are afraid of the recoil of a larger caliber pistol and therefore are likely not to practice with their weapon. The ammo for a 22 is less costly. A brick of 22's cost at or less than the price one on box of another caliber which also promotes more practicing. Shot placement bests bullet diameter every time. When you practice try this. Place 2 shots in the chest followed by 2 to the head and when you practice slow down and go for accuracy, speed will come later. Practice at 21 ft., satistics have proved that most gun fights happen at that distance or less.
    This is interesting information, but the suicide stats skew the picture. Most suicides by firearm use handguns because they are far easier to handle for such a purpose. Anybody who reads accounts of shootouts knows that even police miss their targeta significant percentage of the time when they use handguns. For home self-defense purposes, a shotgun is by far and away the best type of firearm to use. But as far as handguns are concerned, the best type to use is the one that you're most familar with.

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    Dustin wrote:
    I understand the concept. It's the same as the 5.56. I've seen an entry hole in the high chest area, with an exit hole out of the left butt cheek.

    My theory is that I'm more concerned with KNOCKING thefire out of a target, while putting a large bleed holein the target, Effectively bringing the target to a STOP.

    This is whyI chose the 40 S&W Calibered Handgun.

    Thanks for shedding some light on the .22LR.

    Below is whyI chose the .40 as the most effective round.

    .22 produces - Energy of 86 foot-pounds for a 32 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    9mm produces - Energy of 309 foot-pounds for a 115 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    .40 S&W - Energy of 543 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1150 fps.

    .45 ACP - Energy of 422 foot-pounds for a 200 grain bullet at 975 fps.
    What .22 cartidge are you siting these stats for? I just ran through a few of the LR ammo and they seem to be in the 150 Ft Pds in regards to muzzle energy, for 30 to 40 gr bullets. You must be talking about .22 shorts.

    If that's not enough for you, check out .22 HP magnums. Over 2000 fps muzzle velocity, 330 to 350 Ft pds energy. Many .22 revolvers come with both a standard and Magnum cylinder. I would suspect that somebody makes a semi-auto in .22 Mag as well.

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    Dustin wrote:
    I understand the concept. It's the same as the 5.56. I've seen an entry hole in the high chest area, with an exit hole out of the left butt cheek.

    My theory is that I'm more concerned with KNOCKING thefire out of a target, while putting a large bleed holein the target, Effectively bringing the target to a STOP.

    This is whyI chose the 40 S&W Calibered Handgun.

    Thanks for shedding some light on the .22LR.

    Below is whyI chose the .40 as the most effective round.

    .22 produces - Energy of 86 foot-pounds for a 32 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    9mm produces - Energy of 309 foot-pounds for a 115 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    .40 S&W - Energy of 543 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1150 fps.

    .45 ACP - Energy of 422 foot-pounds for a 200 grain bullet at 975 fps.
    Dustin, those figures for the 40 S&W sound a little...high. Most factory specs I've read list a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps. Might get 50 fps more out of some barrels over 4", at least by my chronograph, but that's about it for the most part.

    And I think--relying on memory, which ain't "all that and a bag of chips" in my case, but it seems to me that a few 9mm Parabellum defensive loadings in 115 grain go faster than 1100 fps.

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    Glad to see the caliber argument will never die. :quirky
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    The wife shoots a .32 autoand .22mag revolver and is real comfortable with both I think that is the most important factor where she is concerned. I've seen that penetration and wouldn't want to be taking those hits, and her follow up shots are far quicker and more accurate than mine, but I chose the .44 S&Wfor Dual purpose self defense/hunting..

    the pistols I've bought for my son are really sweet shooters, too the Makarov 9mm and the .38 hammerless S&W snubby are very easy to manipulate and extremely accurate out to near 20 yds, The .44 super redhawk is more for hunting also but he consistently hits a 20 oz. soda bottle at 100 yds w/ reddot sights.

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    Brian D. wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    I understand the concept. It's the same as the 5.56. I've seen an entry hole in the high chest area, with an exit hole out of the left butt cheek.

    My theory is that I'm more concerned with KNOCKING thefire out of a target, while putting a large bleed holein the target, Effectively bringing the target to a STOP.

    This is whyI chose the 40 S&W Calibered Handgun.

    Thanks for shedding some light on the .22LR.

    Below is whyI chose the .40 as the most effective round.

    .22 produces - Energy of 86 foot-pounds for a 32 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    9mm produces - Energy of 309 foot-pounds for a 115 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    .40 S&W - Energy of 543 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1150 fps.

    .45 ACP - Energy of 422 foot-pounds for a 200 grain bullet at 975 fps.
    Dustin, those figures for the 40 S&W sound a little...high. Most factory specs I've read list a 180 grain bullet at 950 fps. Might get 50 fps more out of some barrels over 4", at least by my chronograph, but that's about it for the most part.

    And I think--relying on memory, which ain't "all that and a bag of chips" in my case, but it seems to me that a few 9mm Parabellum defensive loadings in 115 grain go faster than 1100 fps.
    You're right I mixed it up with the .45.

    Still the .40S&W is higher @ 155 gr. than the .45 ACP

    BTW< I just pulled ammo boxes up, and entered their specs in a balistic chart and posted the results.





    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Dustin wrote:
    I understand the concept. It's the same as the 5.56. I've seen an entry hole in the high chest area, with an exit hole out of the left butt cheek.

    My theory is that I'm more concerned with KNOCKING thefire out of a target, while putting a large bleed holein the target, Effectively bringing the target to a STOP.

    This is whyI chose the 40 S&W Calibered Handgun.

    Thanks for shedding some light on the .22LR.

    Below is whyI chose the .40 as the most effective round.

    .22 produces - Energy of 86 foot-pounds for a 32 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    9mm produces - Energy of 309 foot-pounds for a 115 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

    .40 S&W - Energy of 543 foot-pounds for a 185 grain bullet at 1150 fps.

    .45 ACP - Energy of 422 foot-pounds for a 200 grain bullet at 975 fps.
    What .22 cartidge are you siting these stats for? I just ran through a few of the LR ammo and they seem to be in the 150 Ft Pds in regards to muzzle energy, for 30 to 40 gr bullets. You must be talking about .22 shorts.

    If that's not enough for you, check out .22 HP magnums. Over 2000 fps muzzle velocity, 330 to 350 Ft pds energy. Many .22 revolvers come with both a standard and Magnum cylinder. I would suspect that somebody makes a semi-auto in .22 Mag as well.
    Random ammo boxes. Type in the Grains and FPS rated for the ammo, and that's the results.

    I'll post the chart link when I get to work Tom. It's in my favorites at work.

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    .22 is quite powerful. I'd guess many people negligently shoot themselves or others thinking that a .22 is a 'toy'.

    I think the main reason that .22 has the most deaths is that it is the most prolific. Almost anybody that has firearms has at least one .22. Most have more. .22s are also very cheap for both the handgun and the ammo.

    The main problem with .22 is that it doesn't as effectively stop a person as a larger round. Yes, it may kill someone but they'll still be able to kill you first before they bleed out.

    I'd also tend to believe that .22 is used for assassinations. Use a .22 with just the primer... place on the side of someone's head and it'll take them out. No need for a suppressor even.

    I'd also like to point out that the reliability for .22 is much better than most people think. Don't buy the 550 bulk packs and expect reliability. I haven't run into a bad cartridge in a box of CCI Stingers. Yeah, the stingers might be 4-5USD for a box of 50, but it's still cheaper than other handgun ammo. Even the Federal 50 rnd value packs haven't had a dud for me yet.

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    I've been on that subject for many years and have the same perspective and answer for the average person just wanting a self defense weapon. There isn't another weapon made that you can aim and pull the trigger as fast as you can and put them all in the same general area too because of the low recoil. It's also a very accurate round and available in hyper- velocity ammo like the CCI stinger. On the other hand I am an experienced handler and reload as well so i feel far more comfortable with my .357 or a .40 on my side. But, and I reiterate that, I do carry a 22 at times, the PT99, and I don't feel any less safe when I do. It's just my personal preference to carry my big bore withhand loaded ammo.

    I like my .357because I get a round at over 1700 fps and that is just plain effective in any language. The .40 is not quite as high velocity at 1450 ish fps, but certainly will do the job if called upon. I actually prefer the .40 over the 10mm and for good reason, as the 10mm isn't as high velocity and shoots the exact same round, as I'm sure youare aware. In fact, the 10mm is supposed to be the magnum version of the .40 with a longer case being the only difference. I guess that's why it lost popularity so fast following it's introduction back in the early 1990s, or around that time frame. My buddy, a game and fish officer in New Mexico bought one from the sporting good store I workedin as soon as they were on the market only to be disappointed with it's performance. The good news is he just switched to the .40 ammo and had a very good handgun without having to buy a different one.

    gamestalker

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    In deed they are powerful. I've shot coyotes at 300 yds. or more with them and it will plain tear them up. I use the stinger for that, but hey a 22 is a 22 and is well worth the notice that more people own one than any other caliber weapon. Another not so popular one is the 22 mag. which is just plain hot and accurate. It still gives you low enough recoil to handle with no problems, yet produces some exceptional velocities that exceed nearly almost any other handgun caliber made. And the 22 mag has a much heavier jacketed projectile that delivers a bit more weight,and a bit larger in diameter as well.

    Great, I had to go and talk about the 22 mag, now I have to go get another one cause I miss my last one so much. I thought I had gotten over her, but I guess I didn't!

    Speaking of the above. I got a gun for my wife at a gun show last month, good trade!

    gamestalker

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    Pointman wrote:
    While researching this you might have asked, "Why isn't the .22 LR the choice of revolutionaries, police departments, and government agents?"

    Common sense sometimes trumps the most convincing study with much less effort.
    +1 - You got my vote

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