Bigger is not always better

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.22 is quite powerful. I'd guess many people negligently shoot themselves or others thinking that a .22 is a 'toy'.

I think the main reason that .22 has the most deaths is that it is the most prolific. Almost anybody that has firearms has at least one .22. Most have more. .22s are also very cheap for both the handgun and the ammo.

The main problem with .22 is that it doesn't as effectively stop a person as a larger round. Yes, it may kill someone but they'll still be able to kill you first before they bleed out.

I'd also tend to believe that .22 is used for assassinations. Use a .22 with just the primer... place on the side of someone's head and it'll take them out. No need for a suppressor even.

I'd also like to point out that the reliability for .22 is much better than most people think. Don't buy the 550 bulk packs and expect reliability. I haven't run into a bad cartridge in a box of CCI Stingers. Yeah, the stingers might be 4-5USD for a box of 50, but it's still cheaper than other handgun ammo. Even the Federal 50 rnd value packs haven't had a dud for me yet.

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I've been on that subject for many years and have the same perspective and answer for the average person just wanting a self defense weapon. There isn't another weapon made that you can aim and pull the trigger as fast as you can and put them all in the same general area too because of the low recoil. It's also a very accurate round and available in hyper- velocity ammo like the CCI stinger. On the other hand I am an experienced handler and reload as well so i feel far more comfortable with my .357 or a .40 on my side. But, and I reiterate that, I do carry a 22 at times, the PT99, and I don't feel any less safe when I do. It's just my personal preference to carry my big bore withhand loaded ammo.

I like my .357because I get a round at over 1700 fps and that is just plain effective in any language. The .40 is not quite as high velocity at 1450 ish fps, but certainly will do the job if called upon. I actually prefer the .40 over the 10mm and for good reason, as the 10mm isn't as high velocity and shoots the exact same round, as I'm sure youare aware. In fact, the 10mm is supposed to be the magnum version of the .40 with a longer case being the only difference. I guess that's why it lost popularity so fast following it's introduction back in the early 1990s, or around that time frame. My buddy, a game and fish officer in New Mexico bought one from the sporting good store I workedin as soon as they were on the market only to be disappointed with it's performance. The good news is he just switched to the .40 ammo and had a very good handgun without having to buy a different one.

gamestalker

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In deed they are powerful. I've shot coyotes at 300 yds. or more with them and it will plain tear them up. I use the stinger for that, but hey a 22 is a 22 and is well worth the notice that more people own one than any other caliber weapon. Another not so popular one is the 22 mag. which is just plain hot and accurate. It still gives you low enough recoil to handle with no problems, yet produces some exceptional velocities that exceed nearly almost any other handgun caliber made. And the 22 mag has a much heavier jacketed projectile that delivers a bit more weight,and a bit larger in diameter as well.

Great, I had to go and talk about the 22 mag, now I have to go get another one cause I miss my last one so much. I thought I had gotten over her, but I guess I didn't!

Speaking of the above. I got a gun for my wife at a gun show last month, good trade!

gamestalker

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Pointman wrote:

While researching this you might have asked, "Why isn't the .22 LR the choice of revolutionaries, police departments, and government agents?"

Common sense sometimes trumps the most convincing study with much less effort.

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+1 - You got my vote

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Pointman wrote:

While researching this you might have asked, "Why isn't the .22 LR the choice of revolutionaries, police departments, and government agents?"

Common sense sometimes trumps the most convincing study with much less effort.

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Since when has the government ever had any common sense? If the government uses it, it's probably not the most effective item you can have.

And revolutionaries tend to use whatever they have. In many countries revolutionaries have done quite well with nothing more than machetes.

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drkarrow wrote:

Pointman wrote:

While researching this you might have asked, "Why isn't the .22 LR the choice of revolutionaries, police departments, and government agents?"

Common sense sometimes trumps the most convincing study with much less effort.

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Since when has the government ever had any common sense? If the government uses it, it's probably not the most effective item you can have.

And revolutionaries tend to use whatever they have. In many countries revolutionaries have done quite well with nothing more than machetes.

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So do you also assume that the Individual people of the US, and those people's who work for those agencies, just don't have common sense either ?

Do you assume that they KNOW that the .22lr is the most lethal caliber, yet just refuse to use it ?

You have a rather odd logic going here :uhoh:

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grampayeehaa wrote:

Thank you Tarzan, you got the message. While the 22 is not the choice for everyone, my intentions were to assist those first time shooters. Start some one out on a heavy recoilling handgun and it will be very doughtful if they will ever become perficiant.

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I made the mistake of letting my wife shoot a .45 ACP, before she was really comfortable with shooting. She had been shooting a .22 LR but not that much.



Her first shot with the .45 was dead center of the target.



That was her first and last shot with the .45.



Now, many years later, she has no problem shooting .38's out of my .357, but she will not go near my .45.



Tarzan

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tarzan1888 wrote:

grampayeehaa wrote:

Thank you Tarzan, you got the message. While the 22 is not the choice for everyone, my intentions were to assist those first time shooters. Start some one out on a heavy recoilling handgun and it will be very doughtful if they will ever become perficiant.

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I made the mistake of letting my wife shoot a .45 ACP, before she was really comfortable with shooting. She had been shooting a .22 LR but not that much.



Her first shot with the .45 was dead center of the target.



That was her first and last shot with the .45.



Now, many years later, she has no problem shooting .38's out of my .357, but she will not go near my .45.



Tarzan

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Tarzan I couldn't agree with you more as far as breaking the Ice with a more comfortable caliber, My wife was the same way I almost ruined her desire to learn to keep a pistol, but after she picked up her .22 and then the .32 , she will even go as far as schedule ahead of time a day to go shoot now,

I realize she isn't gonna conquer the world with either, but at least she's packing as opposed to cringing.. David didn't back down from Goliath,but he was very confident with where to put his point of impact..

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gamestalker wrote:

In deed they are powerful. I've shot coyotes at 300 yds. or more with them and it will plain tear them up. I use the stinger for that, but hey a 22 is a 22 and is well worth the notice that more people own one than any other caliber weapon. Another not so popular one is the 22 mag. which is just plain hot and accurate. It still gives you low enough recoil to handle with no problems, yet produces some exceptional velocities that exceed nearly almost any other handgun caliber made. And the 22 mag has a much heavier jacketed projectile that delivers a bit more weight,and a bit larger in diameter as well.

Great, I had to go and talk about the 22 mag, now I have to go get another one cause I miss my last one so much. I thought I had gotten over her, but I guess I didn't!

Speaking of the above. I got a gun for my wife at a gun show last month, good trade!

gamestalker

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I believe you are thinking of the cartidge being larger in daimeter, not the projectile. If the mag bullet was larger in diameter, it wouldn't pass through the barrel of revolvers that come withinterchangeable standard .22LR and mag cylinders.

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Actually they are different in diameter. The 22 mag is about .0150" larger than the 22 LR. And noticeably the case is larger tooas you stated. The bullet that the 22 LR shoots is not a jacketed bullet, by all manner of description it is a type of wad cutter. Although thetwo aresafe to shoot out of the same gun by simply changing the cylinder, it isn't producing the same results as a firearm that shoots only the 22 mag. or only the 22 LR. If you measure the barrel of a 22 mag weapon that can shoot both or just the mag and then measure the barrel of a weapon that shoot just 22 LR you will find two different measurements. Now this isn't going to support my statement with any certainly, but then measure the 22 mag projectile. and then 22 LR. and you will discover the big difference in diameter. I'm sure you've seen these convertible firearms that with moon clips they will shoot various ammunition, such as 9 mm & .380, 38 special, a neat little invention. Unfortunately though, they are not accurate because they are shooting projectiles that are properly matched to the barrel dimensions for each particular caliber. It is some what the same with those convertible 22 that will shoot both the mag and the LR.

gamestalker

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gamestalker wrote:

Actually they are different in diameter. The 22 mag is about .0150" larger than the 22 LR. And noticeably the case is larger tooas you stated. The bullet that the 22 LR shoots is not a jacketed bullet, by all manner of description it is a type of wad cutter. Although thetwo aresafe to shoot out of the same gun by simply changing the cylinder, it isn't producing the same results as a firearm that shoots only the 22 mag. or only the 22 LR. If you measure the barrel of a 22 mag weapon that can shoot both or just the mag and then measure the barrel of a weapon that shoot just 22 LR you will find two different measurements. Now this isn't going to support my statement with any certainly, but then measure the 22 mag projectile. and then 22 LR. and you will discover the big difference in diameter. I'm sure you've seen these convertible firearms that with moon clips they will shoot various ammunition, such as 9 mm & .380, 38 special, a neat little invention. Unfortunately though, they are not accurate because they are shooting projectiles that are properly matched to the barrel dimensions for each particular caliber. It is some what the same with those convertible 22 that will shoot both the mag and the LR.

gamestalker

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Hmmm..... I didn't know that.

You can buy jacketed LR's though.

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Are you taking about an actual jacket? Because I know they say copper jacketed but they are that stuff you can scrape off with your finger nail, I call it dusted.

gamestalker

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gamestalker wrote:

Are you taking about an actual jacket? Because I know they say copper jacketed but they are that stuff you can scrape off with your finger nail, I call it dusted.

gamestalker

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Don't know. I bought some Federal HPthat were labeled copper jacketed. I didn't examine them that close.

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That is the jacket I'm referring to. It's really not a jacket at all, just a very thin plating you can scrape off with your finger nail. Itdoesn't increase the diameter of the projectile, or at least enough to change the diameter by any measurable degree. I did some additional research on the subject this morning and discovered I was in fact accurate with my own assertion and measurements with the dial caliper. The firearms that are made to shoot only 22 mag, or both S/L/LR,do have a larger bore than the 22 S/L/LR only firearms.

gamestalker

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Hey gamestalker, how much of your research involved accidents or negligent discharges? I'm suspecting that a good majority of the 22 deaths/injuries were due to people underestimating the 22. I'm not saying this is the way I feel, but a lot of people I know of treat 22's as toys. Also, 22's are usually a person's first gun. First guns are like first cars, there's always going to be an accident. I was lucky and had a good teacher. However too many parents now a days will simply shrug and comment on how "it's just a 22." A 22lr especially out of a rifle such as the 10/22 can be a VERY dangerous thing if put into the wrong or even uneducated hands.

Having said all that, I don't even trust a 9mm. After having to defend myself from an attacking pitt bull and seeing it come back for more after being shot at point blank distance (maybe 6-7 feet) with a 44 magnum Gold Dot hollow point, I just don't trust anything smaller than a 9mm. Basically the way I see it, the only reason to go down in caliber is so that you can go up in capacity. Seeing as how there are only a few 22 handguns that will accept more than a 10 round mag and most fullsize pistols can hold around 8-12 rounds of .45acp, my personal opinion is that 22 is useless as a self defense round. Yes it will kill but the problem is, there's very little immediate shock. There's nothing there to knock you on your butt and force you to ask yourself if you want to continue doing what got you shot in the first place. A 22lr kill is most likely going to be a bleed out. There's a lot of blood in the human body and it would take at the very least a couple minutes to bleed out, that's more than enough time for the attacking target to take me out.

To sum it all up, if you feel comfortable using a 22 for self defense, then by all means do just that and don't worry about what anyone else says. It's all in the comfort of the shooter. Me personally, I like to be knocked around a little when I fire a gun, especially in self defense. However, there are times when a 22 can be just as effective as any other caliber. Ask yourself this, which can you fire faster while still staying on target, a 22 or anything else? The last time I had a 22 I was able to put every shot into the 10 ring as fast as I could pull the trigger. I could never do that with any centerfire handgun except maybe a really heavy full size 9mm but I've never had one of those so I wouldn't know. The point that I'm trying to get across is that with a 22 pistol, you could very easily empty the gun accurately into a target and do a reload by the time I'm finished shooting my 6 rounds of 44mag.

Just my $.02

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If anyone is interested, PM me for info on the worlds first 12/22 SA revolver. Just got the PDF file from the manufacturer that made my .45

I'm a whole lot more accurate with a .22LR revolver than I am with my .45 SA. I've been getting use to a Mak IJ-70 9x18 and am a little better with it, if I don't rapid fire it. I preffer a longer barrel and frames of the revolvers though.

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Very long but very interesting reading - Morgue Ballistics

http://tinyurl.com/2vzgd7
May have to copy and paste - my links are a problem sometimes - would like to know why.

Yata hey

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DocV wrote:

I have attended numerous autopsies in my career as a consultant to the Medical Examiner. The gunshot wounds I have seen were predominantly minor caliber; .22, .32, .380, and .38 Special. However that was due to the "popularity" of those calibers in the region, not their effectiveness at stopping the threat. Yes the BG or victim ended up dead, but in a lot of cases not immediately.

Conversely, I have seen a number ofmajor caliber (.357, 9mm, .40, and .45)GSWs in the ER that should have killed the person but didn't. In some of those cases, the threat was stopped with the first round but the BG or victim lived.

The relationship of calibre to death is not the statistic to examine.

R/

DocV

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That is exactly the point I made on this forum here a little while back. Lethality and "stopping the threat NOW" are two very different things. I'm a mortician, so I've had an insiders point of view with gunshot wounds & firearm deaths for a while now.

For what it's worth, shot placement is the only sure way to put someone down, NOW.

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G20-IWB24/7 wrote:

DocV wrote:

Conversely, I have seen a number ofmajor caliber (.357, 9mm, .40, and .45)GSWs in the ER that should have killed the person but didn't. In some of those cases, the threat was stopped with the first round but the BG or victim lived.

The relationship of calibre to death is not the statistic to examine.

R/

DocV

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For what it's worth, shot placement is the only sure way to put someone down, NOW.

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Now the guy you just quoted says different. :?

Eitherway, the object is to STOP the target immediately. Whether or not he dies is another matter.

I'n my expierence if an enemy becomes a non-combatant, than he's no longer a threat. Alive or Dead.