Bigger is not always better

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The relationship to caliber and shot placement is a valid consideration.

A .45 off center may not be as effective as a .22 well placed but the larger more effective round well spent is vastly superior in ending the threat sooner.

This is supported by Morgue Ballistics in the info provided there.

Yata hey

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Also I find the multiple shot observations suspect. The reason for double taps (as invented by the OSS under Applegate and Fairbairn) was to address the failure rate of the 45 ACP hardball round to Stop. I have seen schools of shooting that teach dumping "a magazine full" into a burglar. You are legally responsible for every round you fire and dumping 15 rounds into the guy is going to make even the most sympathetic jury be tempted to find for murder.

22 ammo, even up to .223, has a record of failure that anyone serious about defense should find unacceptable. Read "BlackHawk Down" for some observations and frustrations of our sons in battle shooting the enemy 6 or 7 times without putting them down. Caliber plays an energy transfer role that is hard to define, yet impossible to ignore. For a discussion of different caliber vs Speed effects on various animals, see "African Rifle Cartridges" by Taylor.

The old timers used to say shoot up to the limit of what you can control. A 44 Special hollowpoint makes a good wife gun (about the same as the 45 but more reliable) or for bigger guys a 210 grain Silvertip .44 Mag should be sufficient. You may only get in one shot. If you feel that more that one shot is required, then up you power level. Get a shot in first, make it hit where you want it to, but spray and pray or multiple shot techniques, unless against armor, does not seem the right path in my humble opinion.

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In self defense "scenarios" obstacles and barriers can be present [and] multiple threats may need to be addressed [and] heavy clothing can defeat smaller caliber efficiency; which are the reasons I carry a stainless Dan Wesson 1911 10mm w/ Double Tap 180 gr Gold Dot JHP's [1330fps/690ftlbs] which are fast, big, powerful and accurate as heck.

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CD MCKINNEY wrote:

In self defense "scenarios" obstacles and barriers can be present [and] multiple threats may need to be addressed [and] heavy clothing can defeat smaller caliber efficiency; which are the reasons I carry a stainless Dan Wesson 1911 10mm w/ Double Tap 180 gr Gold Dot JHP's [1330fps/690ftlbs] which are fast, big, powerful and accurate as heck.

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And lighter clothing, no barriers or obstacles and what is the back stop need to be considered. Virtually all decisions regarding caliber, brand, load selection are a personal compromise.

IMO - 10mm over penetrates, has more recoil and is not my personal selection but it is OK that you choose it.

Yata hey

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Grapeshot wrote:

CD MCKINNEY wrote:

In self defense "scenarios" obstacles and barriers can be present [and] multiple threats may need to be addressed [and] heavy clothing can defeat smaller caliber efficiency; which are the reasons I carry a stainless Dan Wesson 1911 10mm w/ Double Tap 180 gr Gold Dot JHP's [1330fps/690ftlbs] which are fast, big, powerful and accurate as heck.

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And lighter clothing, no barriers or obstacles and what is the back stop need to be considered. Virtually all decisions regarding caliber, brand, load selection are a personal compromise.

IMO - 10mm over penetrates, has more recoil and is not my personal selection but it is OK that you choose it.

Yata hey

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The load choice is not a "compromise" it is an obvious consideration, and having too little power [to me] is a "compromise"; I think an unwise one, so I choose to have the choice to take the shot if its good or not as I have been in several gunfights [and] you cannot"plan" for the "scenario" you might encounter, unless you can predict the future. Also, in a [real] gunfight more shots miss than those that have a chance of over-penetrating, so it is not as huge a factor as you imply. Finally, the 10mm has a more than manageable recoil in a properly tuned 5" 1911 and isn't a factor to those who know and practice with their weapons. I used to live in Gallup, New Mexico, "Navajo capital of the world" where I carried a .41 magnum. I appreciate your opinion, but I have experience that say otherwise.

"Yatahey"

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Opinion, personal choice, compromise et al are interchangeable in this context for me. The point being that we all make a selection that best suits ourselves.

Glad that you prevailed in your encounters. You obviously made good decisions/preparations for yourself.

Yata hey

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I am of the theory that you should carry the largest gun that you can comfortably carry and practice with. Mylogic is as follows:

1. The last thing you want to have to do when drawing your weaponin a situation is have to pull the trigger.

2. The larger the gun, the larger the "Oh...s_ _t!" factor on the part of the perpetrator.

3. The larger the "Oh...s_ _t!" factor, the greater the chance of the perpetrator running away.

4. Hence, the less chance you will have to pull the trigger.

I carry a . 357 Magnum, Smith and Wesson 686 (7 shot) with a 3" barrel ina strong side, high rise holster. I wear alarge shirtuntuckedwhen I conceal.

Just a thought.

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Y'all might want'a consider:





Bullet weight/type
Velocity
Energy

255gr (16.5g) Lead SWC
961ft/s (293m/s)
523ft·lbf (709J)

200gr (13g) XTP
1,032ft/s (315m/s)
473ft·lbf (641J)

230gr (15g) XTP
969ft/s (295m/s)
480ft·lbf (650J)

250gr (16g) XTP
929ft/s (283m/s)
479ft·lbf (649J)

Test barrel length: 7.5inches (190mm)
Source: Accurate Powder [1][/suP]

HUH? :? .45LC... invented in 1873!

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ScottyT wrote:

I would love to shoot/OC this beauty!
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=14747&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y

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I have one for training students, they're very nice. Plus it looks like a Dirty Harry gun.Sorry for sidetracking the thread.

My $.02: use .22 for training new shooters. I like .45 for defense.

Get the biggest, most powerful gun that you can safely, comfortably and accurately handle, and then practice a lot. Try some IPSC or IDPA competition to gain more speed and accuracy.

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Over $800. for a .22LR wheelgun? Heh... :lol:

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.45 Colt is one of the most versitile cartridges...if you reload. I wish I had bought one for hunting before I had bought a .44 Magnum...althought that is a NICE caliber. The .45 Colt full load hunting rounds are a handfull; however, unlike the .44 Mag. The loaded down .45 Colt rounds for self defense are easy to handle and put a BIG hole in their target

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Correct me if I am wrong, but here is my take on the evolution of the 40 cal and 10mm rounds:

The original autoload combat/self defense round was the .45 ACP; developed due to the poor performance of the .38 Special in military situations. It is a big, slow moving bullet that generally stopped an attacker with one round. During the 80s and 90s, the rage was the 9mm due to the fact that it did not produce much recoil and the magazine could hold "lots" of ammo. The military even bought into this and we have the Beretta 92M. The police departments followed suit.

Then, because of the poor performance of the 9mm, the 40 cal and 10mm were developed to give a bigger bullet with low recoil. I have never fired one and I have nothing against the rounds.

It is ironic that the military is going back to the 1911 for certain situations and many police departments (like here in Prince William Co, VA) are going to the .45 ACP.

I am not bothered by recoil, so I, personally, see little sense in going with other than the "good-old" .45 ACP for a self defense round.

I would appreciate anyone letting me know if my take on this is not correct. Thanks.

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There will always be room for .45 and 9mm in my gunsafe. As far as I am conserned each has it's uses.

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No doubt! I am a wheelgun fan, mainly because I reload and don't want to go "groveling" all over the range picking up brass. If I had to pick one auto loader handgun, it would be the .45 ACP. Anyone have any good choices for a 1911? How is the Taurus?

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Don Barnett wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but here is my take on the evolution of the 40 cal and 10mm rounds:

The original autoload combat/self defense round was the .45 ACP; developed due to the poor performance of the .38 Special in military situations. It is a big, slow moving bullet that generally stopped an attacker with one round. During the 80s and 90s, the rage was the 9mm due to the fact that it did not produce much recoil and the magazine could hold "lots" of ammo. The military even bought into this and we have the Beretta 92M. The police departments followed suit.

Then, because of the poor performance of the 9mm, the 40 cal and 10mm were developed to give a bigger bullet with low recoil. I have never fired one and I have nothing against the rounds.

It is ironic that the military is going back to the 1911 for certain situations and many police departments (like here in Prince William Co, VA) are going to the .45 ACP.

I am not bothered by recoil, so I, personally, see little sense in going with other than the "good-old" .45 ACP for a self defense round.

I would appreciate anyone letting me know if my take on this is not correct. Thanks.

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You have it partially correct. The military went to the 9mm for "standardization" purposes as all other NATO members use this round. This decision brought the 9mm round to prominence at a time when semi-autos were becoming increasingly popular. Other branches of the government - FBI etc. jumped on board as well and this, of course, leads to trickle down to local police depts. The 9mm round was subsequently found to have "knock down" issues - esp. with light 115gr ammo by FBI and others as well as another problem - over penetration compared to old .45acp,so new solutions were sought. The marketplace responded with the .40S&W and 10mm rounds. The military has a stockpile of old 1911's, so it's not unusual to see some floating around in special use outfits. It may ultimately go back to the .45acp as keeping up with out NATO brothers is less an issue these days with the soviet bear off our backs. I doubt it will be the 1911 if they do as there are better framed models out there which could be had cheaper than accurizing an old govt model. I would like to restate that "over penetration" is a real concern, esp. with police as the 9mm with +PJHP ammo is certainly lethal. I own 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45acp and feel comfortable defending myself with either of them.

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Sonora Rebel wrote:

Over $800. for a .22LR wheelgun? Heh... :lol:

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Yeah, I wouldn't have paid that much for a .22LR wheelgun. I was lucky enough to find a good deal on a certified pre-owned model. It is a sweet shooter, though. If I was going to carry a .22, it would be this one. Ten rounds in a wheelgun. WOOT!!!

Wow, $800? That's a decent AK + 2000 rds of ammo.

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While we're all complaining about the 9mm, let's remember that we're still talking of strict FMJ loads here. I'm not sure about most police forces, but I wouldn't use a FMJ round in my PDA regardless of caliber. Let's not forget we are still only talking 1 or 2 millimeters of difference from 9mm to 11.43mm.

Shot placement trumps caliber every time - especially when we're talking about hyped up meth addicts.

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Oh yeah, there is no doubt that the JHP is a world of difference over the "ball"
ammo. With any round, practice in a realistic setting makes a world of difference, also. I have seen a video of a police officer unloading an entire magazine of 9 mmand never once hitting the perpetrator...and he was only 7 feet away. So yes, shot placement is everything...but stress apparently is a big factor! I've never been there!

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FreedomJoyAdventure wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

Over $800. for a .22LR wheelgun? Heh... :lol:

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Yeah, I wouldn't have paid that much for a .22LR wheelgun. I was lucky enough to find a good deal on a certified pre-owned model. It is a sweet shooter, though. If I was going to carry a .22, it would be this one. Ten rounds in a wheelgun. WOOT!!!

Wow, $800? That's a decent AK + 2000 rds of ammo.

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Ten rounds? How about a 12 round .22LR wheelgun? Starting at $750 MSRP

http://www.usfirearms.com/cat/12-22.asp