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Thread: Virginia 24/7 CHP Validation

  1. #1
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    I was reading that South Carolina was being dropped from Virginia's Reciprocity because SC did not have 24/7 Validation of CHP Permits.

    Does Virginia have 24/7 Validation?

    I believe that a Virginia LEO could look you up and see this in their computer system, but what if I am traveling in North Carolina and get pulled.
    How would the NC LEO verify my permit if needed?

  2. #2
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    And, purely rhetorically, if the permit needs to be "validated", why carry the little plastic-encased card in the first place?

    I'm sure there are good answers, but it does strike me a bit funny.

    regards,

    GR


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    Yes, that is partially what I was thinking.

    My CHP looks like it was printed out on plain cardstock with an inkjet printer.

    I had to take it to Kinko's to laminate it myself.



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    I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.

    Or as Gentleman said above - why even bother carrying anything if they are going to call it in and check anyway....

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    Armed wrote:
    I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.
    That's an excellent idea !
    James Reynolds

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    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Armed wrote:
    Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...

    Or as Gentleman said above - why even bother carrying anything if they are going to call it in and check anyway....
    Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags.

    A records check is run on the IDd driver and that shows you have a CHP.

    As to why check it out - you could be a felon, wants & warrents, permit suspended etc.

    Solution is simple - don't violate any traffic laws. :P

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Gentleman Ranker wrote:
    And, purely rhetorically, if the permit needs to be "validated", why carry the little plastic-encased card in the first place?
    And if we have to carry the card in the first place, can they at least make it out of plastic and look somewhat official? Mine is just a cheap white tear off business card with the state seal upside down and on the wrong side of the card. My college ID looks better and is more secure.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Armed wrote:
    Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...
    Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags.

    I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.

    I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.


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    What's so weird about this 24/7 verification protocol is that the law does not require that the verification actually work. The permit itself is prima facie evidence of your privilege to conceal, and a non-verification in VCIN (Virginia Criminal Information System) does not mean anything - my first VA CHP was never entered into VCIN.

    What counts is the permit, and an officer with suspicion that the permit is not valid must check the court record or the VSP record in the case of VSP issued CHPs.

    Same with the other states - so what if the permit does not come back as "verified"?

    That's why we should srop this 24/7 verification protocol from 18.2-308 entirely - it just gets in the way of reciprocity agreements.

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    The latest VCDL Alert say the problem with SC is getting worked out. It turns out they do have 24/7.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Armed wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Armed wrote:
    Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway...
    Common misconception, CHPs are not linked to driver's license or tags
    I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.

    I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.
    And how would this work to satisfy the requirement that the permit and an approved photo ID be given upon together when required? This would not be up to DMV but would require a change to the Code of Virginia.

    Not likely either as few would desire a "subtle" notification of legal carry such as a small innocent code on your drivers license in place of an actual hard copy permit. I think to suggest both, our legislators would see this as unnecessarily duplicity.

    Then you have the problem with traveling to other states and the reciprocity thing..... aah officer, see that little "x" on my license - that means I have a CHP.

    I agree that the physical permit itself should be more official looking in its presentation, less tacky

    Ever tried to use your CHP as a second form of identification? I have and will continue to do so. It has everything reasonably required: name, address, your description and issued by a government entity, even the state seal. Only once or twice has it been accepted - normally refused (it's not on their list) and a vastly inferior form - a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.
    Very wrong - all credit card companies require their cards to be signed. No credit card authorizes merchants to demand ID. MasterCard and VISA strictly forbid merchants form demanding ID to use a signed credit card. Report merchants who violate this policy at http://www.mastercard.com/us/persona...iolations.html

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    Mike wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    a credit card with "check ID instead of a signature - is accepted. Go figure.
    Very wrong - all credit card companies require their cards to be signed. No credit card authorizes merchants to demand ID. MasterCard and VISA strictly forbid merchants form demanding ID to use a signed credit card. Report merchants who violate this policy at http://www.mastercard.com/us/persona...iolations.html
    I understand their rules. I couldn't tell you the last time a merchant checked to see if the card was signed. Nobodies problem but my own - and it isn't a problem.

    That wasn't really the point.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Armed wrote:
    I wrote to VCDL to see if they would support a legislative change that would include a CHP endorsement to our drivers license as an option of the permit holder.

    I still think that makes a lot more sense than a flimsy piece of scrap paper.
    I prefer a legislative change the removes the CHP program altogether. The 2A recognizes a natural right to K&B arms. The CHP program is a civil law that encroaches upon the natural right.

    I, personally, wouldn't support a change to include an additional class on a driver's license. I am a lawfully carrying citizen. When I am required to present my identification for one reason or another, I don't need that individual/organization to know, without asking, what my status is with regards to having a CHP, much less whether or not I have a firearm in my possession.

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    If notifying a LEO that you are carrying is not a requirement, then would not an identifying mark on your drivers license preclude that option at a traffic stop.
    Do not chime in and tell me that would be good for officer safety - its not the permit holder that causes the problems.

    Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
    I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Armed wrote:
    I do not understand why... as an OPTION... we could not have a code listed on our driver's license as an endorsement. Our permits are linked to our DMV records anyway... and it could be relatively sublte, like a 'K' or 'W', or something.
    That's an excellent idea !
    I disagree 1000000.1%, it is a terrible idea. We shouldn't even need a license to carry as is. I don't want to be driving through MD and some LEO pull me over and harass me because he sees I have a "Code" on my DL stating I have a CHP.

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    I am disabled, so I can not drive. I do nor have a DL. I DO HAVE A CHP

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
    I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.

    Yata hey
    The no permit required is great but there are still some issues of.

    Alaska Statute 11.61.220 allows anyone 21 or older, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states.

    A person 21 or older may be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon under AS 11.61.220 if s/he

    • fails to immediately inform a peace officer that s/he is carrying a concealed handgun
    • fails to allow the officer to secure the weapon or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, or
    • carries the weapon concealed within another person's residence, unless s/he has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there, whether or not the person has a concealed handgun permit.

      [line]
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    Agent19 wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Best of all worlds would be Alaska Carry with permits only for reciprocity purposes.
    I suspect that I will win the lottery twice before that happens.

    Yata hey
    The no permit required is great but there are still some issues of.

    Alaska Statute 11.61.220 allows anyone 21 or older, who may legally carry a firearm to also carry it concealed without having to obtain a special permit. The possession of a firearm at courthouses, school yards, bars and domestic violence shelters will continue to be prohibited. Alaskans may obtain a concealed carry permit if they want reciprocity with other states.

    A person 21 or older may be charged with carrying a concealed deadly weapon under AS 11.61.220 if s/he
    • fails to immediately inform a peace officer that s/he is carrying a concealed handgun
    • fails to allow the officer to secure the weapon or fails to secure the weapon at the direction of the peace officer, or
    • carries the weapon concealed within another person's residence, unless s/he has first obtained the express permission of an adult residing there, whether or not the person has a concealed handgun permit.
      [line]
    Vermonts
    http://www.leg.state.vt.us/statutes/...mp;Chapter=085
    Open mouth, place foot firmly in said opening. Mmmfr. Let this be a leason that the grass is not always greener elsewhere and to not accept anybody else's word for anything.

    Appreciate the links. There are definitely some things that I do not like about Alaska's weapons laws, in fact there are some areas in which I prefer Virginia's - I'm shocked but wiser.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    skispcs wrote:
    I was reading that South Carolina was being dropped from Virginia's Reciprocity because SC did not have 24/7 Validation of CHP Permits.

    Does Virginia have 24/7 Validation?

    I believe that a Virginia LEO could look you up and see this in their computer system, but what if I am traveling in North Carolina and get pulled.
    How would the NC LEO verify my permit if needed?

    Nevada (Nev. Rev. Stat. § 202.3689(1)), Virginia (Va. Code § 18.2-308(P)), and West Virginia (W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a(d)(2))are the only states whose reciprocity/recognition laws require a reciprocal/recognized state to have instant verification capabilities. Minnesota has made verification capabilities a part of its analysis of whether a state has equivalent licensing standards.

    As Mike indicated in a post above, a license/permit card is prima facie evidence of licensure, and most states do not require more.

    The whole issue of whether a person might forge a permit or carry on a revoked permit is so rare in practice that the argument that we need to maintain the 24/7 verification requirement in our reciprocity law to guard against these incidents is without merit. Every jurisdiction, regardless of whether it has a centralized license/permit database, can examine its records and ascertain within no more than a few days whether a purported license or permit is valid. Every law-enforcement officer can run an instant background check on a person to determine whether that person is prohibited by law from possessing firearms and arrest a prohibited possessor regardless of whether that person claims to have a CHP (or equivalent).
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    WVCDL wrote:
    skispcs wrote:
    I was reading that South Carolina was being dropped from Virginia's Reciprocity because SC did not have 24/7 Validation of CHP Permits.

    Does Virginia have 24/7 Validation?

    I believe that a Virginia LEO could look you up and see this in their computer system, but what if I am traveling in North Carolina and get pulled.
    How would the NC LEO verify my permit if needed?

    Nevada (Nev. Rev. Stat. § 202.3689(1)), Virginia (Va. Code § 18.2-308(P)), and West Virginia (W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a(d)(2))are the only states whose reciprocity/recognition laws require a reciprocal/recognized state to have instant verification capabilities. Minnesota has made verification capabilities a part of its analysis of whether a state has equivalent licensing standards.

    As Mike indicated in a post above, a license/permit card is prima facie evidence of licensure, and most states do not require more.

    The whole issue of whether a person might forge a permit or carry on a revoked permit is so rare in practice that the argument that we need to maintain the 24/7 verification requirement in our reciprocity law to guard against these incidents is without merit. Every jurisdiction, regardless of whether it has a centralized license/permit database, can examine its records and ascertain within no more than a few days whether a purported license or permit is valid. Every law-enforcement officer can run an instant background check on a person to determine whether that person is prohibited by law from possessing firearms and arrest a prohibited possessor regardless of whether that person claims to have a CHP (or equivalent).
    Great analysis! Plus, in practice, do police even run 24/7 checks? i know they do not at the VA General Assembly!

  22. #22
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:
    Great analysis! Plus, in practice, do police even run 24/7 checks? i know they do not at the VA General Assembly!
    Excellant point Mike. You got a good nights sleep last night, eh.

    But we did get a face to face conversation with the Chief!
    The're still making rules up as they go along.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    SC does have a 24/7 check system. The new folks at SLED gave out the wrong info and got us dropped.

    Our people with Grass roots got the ball rolling and VA and SC were in chat mode.

    Last I heard VA had given a thumbs up and put it back to SLED for total Reciprocity.

    They can drop us in a heartbeat, but how long will it take to get back on?

  24. #24
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    Mike wrote:
    WVCDL wrote:
    Nevada (Nev. Rev. Stat. § 202.3689(1)), Virginia (Va. Code § 18.2-308(P)), and West Virginia (W.Va. Code § 61-7-6a(d)(2))are the only states whose reciprocity/recognition laws require a reciprocal/recognized state to have instant verification capabilities. Minnesota has made verification capabilities a part of its analysis of whether a state has equivalent licensing standards.

    As Mike indicated in a post above, a license/permit card is prima facie evidence of licensure, and most states do not require more.

    The whole issue of whether a person might forge a permit or carry on a revoked permit is so rare in practice that the argument that we need to maintain the 24/7 verification requirement in our reciprocity law to guard against these incidents is without merit. Every jurisdiction, regardless of whether it has a centralized license/permit database, can examine its records and ascertain within no more than a few days whether a purported license or permit is valid. Every law-enforcement officer can run an instant background check on a person to determine whether that person is prohibited by law from possessing firearms and arrest a prohibited possessor regardless of whether that person claims to have a CHP (or equivalent).
    Great analysis! Plus, in practice, do police even run 24/7 checks? i know they do not at the VA General Assembly!
    Unfortunately, I can now speak from personal experience. If they do, it's rare.

    I was stopped on I-66 west near Front Royal this past Sunday by a state trooper for 79/65 and a radar detector.

    I pulled well off to the side to leave plenty of space between my vehicle and traffic. I rolled down my window, turned off the engine, kept my hands on the steering wheel, followed his directions and, when I began removing my driver's license from my wallet, also removed my CHL and informed him I had a permit and was presently carrying. He asked and I told him where I was carrying. He politely asked me to exit the vehicle. He slowly removed the gun from my IWB holster, laid it on the driver's seat, and has me come to his car (much better than leaving me outside in the 94-degree heat). He reviewed my licenses, registration, and insurance card. He did not check either my DL or CHL, nor did he run a plate check on my vehicle. I then asked him about how to handle my gun when I got back to my vehicle (since he laid it on my seat), and he told me just to reholster it normallybut have my holster & gun facing him as I reholster before getting back into my vehicle.

    I didn't ask, but he let me go with a ticket only for the radar detector and did not confiscate it (he did ask me to lock it up until I got out of Virginia). So I'm going to be out $101 but it is my first ticket in 5 years. At least I won't have to worry about fighting the WV DMV over whether the 79/65 I could have gotten should be kept off my license record pursuant to W.Va. Code 17C-6-1(j), not to mention the extra $70 that it would have added to the check I am about to write to the Warren County General District Court.
    James M. "Jim" Mullins, Jr., Esq.
    Admitted to practice in West Virginia and Florida.

    Founder, Past President, Treasurer, and General Counsel, West Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc.
    Life Member, NRA

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    Here is my incident. I too came out ahead. I was traveling through SC on may way to FL one night and an unmarked SC trooper clocked me at 82/70. When pulled over, he came to my right passenger window and asked for my DL and Reg. The Reg was in the glove compartment along with a Ruger 45 handgun.

    Inever attempted to reach for the papers and instead told him I had a holstered handgun in the glove compartment. He said OK, please open the box. I did and he asked for the gun (for my safety and yours was the way he put it), which I gave him handle first.

    He left and came back with a ticket for the speeding, my unloaded gun and clip and gave me everything back. He thanked me for telling him about the gun and after I received the ticket told me where to call to ask for a reduction in the fine and to not have the offense shared with my state, FL. It all worked great, I did get a reduction and the points never showed up on my FL license.

    The moral is, if you are legal, be up front. I was polite and mature about it and he appreciated it. This was one of the better LEO I have run into and I sent a letter of support to the SC Highway patrol about him. Unfortunately, he was called back into the Marines and was killed in Iraq later on. What a waste.

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