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Thread: Official "No Firearm" Sign?

  1. #1
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    Ok, had a brief conversation with a friend of mine who happens to work as a security officer in Lakeview Square Mall in Battle Creek, and he told me that the mall itself was a "No Firearm" zone. I've since been in there, and didn't see the yellow triangle sticker on the doors anywhere that said "No Firearms". I called him, and he said it's on a sign, posted INSIDE the first set of doors.

    I went in, and sure enough, there on the mall's "Code of Conduct" is a "No Firearms/Weapons" bit. Does this constitute a legal no firearms sign, or is it supposed to be posted on an external surface?

    Technically, you'd be breaking the rules just by getting far enough in to read the sign right?

    Also, there is no graphic or easily read sign posted anywhere. It's just a bit of text, 22 pixels high, arial font. Without knowing exactly where to look, you would never, ever see this sign.

    Discuss.

    *S*

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    azebolsky wrote:
    Ok, had a brief conversation with a friend of mine who happens to work as a security officer in Lakeview Square Mall in Battle Creek, and he told me that the mall itself was a "No Firearm" zone. I've since been in there, and didn't see the yellow triangle sticker on the doors anywhere that said "No Firearms". I called him, and he said it's on a sign, posted INSIDE the first set of doors.

    I went in, and sure enough, there on the mall's "Code of Conduct" is a "No Firearms/Weapons" bit. Does this constitute a legal no firearms sign, or is it supposed to be posted on an external surface?

    Technically, you'd be breaking the rules just by getting far enough in to read the sign right?

    Also, there is no graphic or easily read sign posted anywhere. It's just a bit of text, 22 pixels high, arial font. Without knowing exactly where to look, you would never, ever see this sign.

    Discuss.

    *S*
    There is no "legal " signage in Michigan law in this regard. Any sign will work. The Mallhas made it clear that firearms are banned. Now if you enter the mall OCing and they see you they can have you arrested for trespassing if they want. The sign is the first warning. Just because you may not have seen it doesn't necesarrily give you an excuse to trespass, that would be up to a court case.

    Also if you went in concealing and had to use your firearm for a lawful purpose, there are some that suggest you might lose your "stand your ground" protection and your protection from civil action, since you are "technically" trespassing and you're are not there lawfully. Againa test in court would be nedded.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    AgainÂ*a test in court would be needed.
    Not something I'm willing to test. Any other takers?

    *S*

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    You may very well be screwing yourself now that you have posted on a public message board that you ARE aware of the sign...... as well as EVERYONE else that reads this.



    Thanks, we can't even argue that we "didn't know" now.:?

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    How about writing the corporation that owns the Mall to see if it’s their policy orLocal Mall management? Corporate may have a different View. I wrote Lowes Store Corporation to find they were pro gun and follow laws of the state, which trumps local store management.
    I’m proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    azebolsky wrote:
    Againa test in court would be needed.
    Not something I'm willing to test. Any other takers?

    *S*
    Not sure but supreme court had 1 st ad case on existing sidewalk rule in malls or something checking re; free speach

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    Doug, respectfully, if you don't want to risk it, then don't patronize the place? Myself, I walked through the mall concealed not even a week before I knew it was unfriendly to firearms, and noticed not one single sign anywhere else in the building stating no firearms. I have emailed General Growth Properties, and am currently waiting for a response other than, "We have received your request for further contact/information." I will post back on if this is a particular location's policy, or if it is indeed a corporate policy put into place by GGP.

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    Venator,

    In PA, the sign holds no legal weight whatsoever, they have to ask you to leave first, and only after refusing to go can you be charged with trespassing. Is the MI rule that you're trespassing the instant you go in to a posted store?

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    jbone wrote:
    How about writing the corporation that owns the Mall to see if it’s their policy orLocal Mall management? Corporate may have a different View.
    A complete waste of time, IMO. General Growth Properties, which is headquartered in CHICAGO, owns some 200 malls across the USA.

    All major malls in Tucson and nearby are owned by GGP and are posted no firearms! I recently spoke with the head man of one mall in Tucson who told me they have a hot line to security and can have an armed response to the mall within minutes.

    When I countered with"when seconds count, the police are minutes away", he gave me a blank look. The man just didn't understand personal defense!

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    Venator,

    In PA, the sign holds no legal weight whatsoever, they have to ask you to leave first, and only after refusing to go can you be charged with trespassing. Is the MI rule that you're trespassing the instant you go in to a posted store?
    I believe it's unclear, no law specifically states that, that I'm aware of. But a legal argument could be made and a court case would have to be decide. One would be taking their chances. I had an attorney that stated a case "out east" where a man was convicted of trespassing, based on a small pamphlet at the information desk, that stated no firearms. The court decided that that was enough notification. All I'm saying is it's a gray area and each person has to weight the risk of going unarmed or not.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    I am unclear if signage alone is enough to invoke the "no weapons/trespass" clause of the public act covering firearms on private property. There are several other requirements in other ordinances/public acts that list specifications for signage in order for the sign to be the defacto notification. Consider, for instance, in Michigan an upright "handicapped" sign must be permanently affixed to an immovable mount visible immediately in front of the space reserved for a handicapped or disabled person in order for the "handicapped reserved parking ordinance" to be invoked and a ticket issued. In other words, if the upright sign isn't posted, it isn't a designated handicapped space no matter what may be painted on the pavement (think of winter snow cover). Other public acts list minimun sign dimensions for compliance.

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    BTW. The Altell store in Big Rapids, MI has a VERY small sign affixed a little above waist level to the left of the entrance to their store. I had come and gone in that store literally for years while CC-ing before I spotted that store on the "No Firearms" list on MCGRO. I do not beleive that tiny sign is sufficient to cause someone overlooking same to be in violation of the "No Firearms/Trespass" clause of the public act covering the carrying of firearms in Michigan. Although, as with anything, the final test is a trial and possibly judgement by your peers... YMMV.

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    Contacting the mall isn't going to do any good. We are not their customers, the stores are their customers. Those of us in the area need to inform every single store inLakeviewSquare Mall that we will not be patronizing their establishments because the mallrules limit our ability to protect ourselves. Let the stores put the pressure on the mall managment because they are losing revenue.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Bronson wrote:
    Contacting the mall isn't going to do any good. We are not their customers, the stores are their customers. Those of us in the area need to inform every single store inLakeviewSquare Mall that we will not be patronizing their establishments because the mallrules limit our ability to protect ourselves. Let the stores put the pressure on the mall managment because they are losing revenue.

    Bronson
    Good point. As long as the Mall gets rent it's happy.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    Contacting the mall isn't going to do any good. We are not their customers, the stores are their customers. Those of us in the area need to inform every single store inLakeviewSquare Mall that we will not be patronizing their establishments because the mallrules limit our ability to protect ourselves. Let the stores put the pressure on the mall managment because they are losing revenue.

    Bronson
    Good point. As long as the Mall gets rent it's happy.
    Yes, good point, BUT, I think you'd have a hard time getting enough stores on board to make the "mall people" listen. Hopefully I'm wrong though.

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    I think the only way to get the Mall to allow firearms is to contact the owners of said facility.The stores in the mall merely lease space from the property owners. They dont own it. However, I believe they may be able to make their own rules per store, but I may be wrong. It would be very difficult to try and get every store to change its stance on firearms in the building. Take the Meridian Mall, there are 118 stores in that place. That would be huge undertaking trying to contact, and turn 118 corporations around.

    That said, I believe the contacting the property owners would be the best bet. Not the stores.
    The only terrorists I see nowadays are at the Capital.


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    I like your thinking. We should get together for lunch some time and maybe do a walk-through of the mall. LMK.

    *S*

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    Rogue9er wrote:
    In PA, the sign holds no legal weight whatsoever, they have to ask you to leave first, and only after refusing to go can you be charged with trespassing. Is the MI rule that you're trespassing the instant you go in to a posted store?
    It is my understanding of the law in Michigan as explained to me by LEOs in the past (as a result of my urban exploration activities) that this is also the case in Michigan.

    Then again, we all know how well LEOs understand the law that they're supposed to be enforcing (as well as some of the nonexistent ones they like to enforce), and neither am I a lawyer, so this is purely anecdotal.

    Perhaps someone versed in finding things in the state code could drop the book on trespassing on us?

    Cheers,
    -jp

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    I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.

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    karlmc10 wrote:
    I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.
    Which is swell for those that have a license but many don't what then?
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  21. #21
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    Venator wrote:
    karlmc10 wrote:
    I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.
    Which is swell for those that have a license but many don't what then?
    Go unarmed or shop elsewhere. If you shop elsewhere make sure the store manager and corporate officeknows that you are taking your business to their competitor and why.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Tucker6900 wrote:
    Take the Meridian Mall, there are 118 stores in that place. That would be huge undertaking trying to contact, and turn 118 corporations around.
    Huge battles yield huge victories. You can bet that if we can convince all 118 merchants at this mall to make written request to honor local law, they will at least bepersuadedto reconsider their decisions. And who knows, perhaps it would be enough to make a change in all 200 of their malls! What a victory that would be.

    Who is starting the battle list?
    United we STAND!

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    Bronson wrote:

    Go unarmed or shop elsewhere.

    Bronson
    I think what he means is "shop elsewhere".

    -jp

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    If you go into the mall through one of the stores, the signs are not posted. It is only posted at the main entrance to the Lakeview Square Mall.There are no signs posted when you leave any of the stores to enter the mall either.

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    There is no "legal " signage in Michigan law in this regard. Any sign will work. The Mallhas made it clear that firearms are banned. Now if you enter the mall OCing and they see you they can have you arrested for trespassing if they want. The sign is the first warning. Just because you may not have seen it doesn't necesarrily give you an excuse to trespass, that would be up to a court case.

    Also if you went in concealing and had to use your firearm for a lawful purpose, there are some that suggest you might lose your "stand your ground" protection and your protection from civil action, since you are "technically" trespassing and you're are not there lawfully. Againa test in court would be nedded.
    Is anyone else disturbed by this? I personally prefer to cc and from day one I have always made a habit of looking for "victim zone" signs before entering a business. I guess it just worries me that should I be in a place of business and some thug threatens the safety of myself or my family I have to think about whether or not there is a hidden sign somewhere before I defend myself. As we all know, seconds count.
    United we STAND!

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