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Official "No Firearm" Sign?

Bronson

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Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:
karlmc10 wrote:
I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.
Which is swell for those that have a license but many don't what then?

Go unarmed or shop elsewhere. If you shop elsewhere make sure the store manager and corporate officeknows that you are taking your business to their competitor and why.

Bronson
 

JeffSayers

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Tucker6900 wrote:
Take the Meridian Mall, there are 118 stores in that place. That would be huge undertaking trying to contact, and turn 118 corporations around.

Huge battles yield huge victories. You can bet that if we can convince all 118 merchants at this mall to make written request to honor local law, they will at least bepersuadedto reconsider their decisions. And who knows, perhaps it would be enough to make a change in all 200 of their malls! What a victory that would be.

Who is starting the battle list?
 

kreteman

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If you go into the mall through one of the stores, the signs are not posted. It is only posted at the main entrance to the Lakeview Square Mall.There are no signs posted when you leave any of the stores to enter the mall either.
 

JeffSayers

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There is no "legal " signage in Michigan law in this regard. Any sign will work. The Mallhas made it clear that firearms are banned. Now if you enter the mall OCing and they see you they can have you arrested for trespassing if they want. The sign is the first warning. Just because you may not have seen it doesn't necesarrily give you an excuse to trespass, that would be up to a court case.

Also if you went in concealing and had to use your firearm for a lawful purpose, there are some that suggest you might lose your "stand your ground" protection and your protection from civil action, since you are "technically" trespassing and you're are not there lawfully. Againa test in court would be nedded.
Is anyone else disturbed by this? I personally prefer to cc and from day one I have always made a habit of looking for "victim zone" signs before entering a business. I guess it just worries me that should I be in a place of business and some thug threatens the safety of myself or my family I have to think about whether or not there is a hidden sign somewhere before I defend myself. As we all know, seconds count.
 

Venator

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A Lancaster man was arrested over the weekend after he left his loaded pistol at a Fort Mill playground and a 7-year-old girl found it, according to a York County Sheriff’s Office report.
A deputy was called to Plaza Fiesta just after 1:45 p.m. Saturday by a man who said a 7-year-old girl had given him a gun that she found on the playground.
The weapon was fully loaded when the girl discovered it, the report stated.
Later, 31-year-old Anthony Roberts asked a security guard if he could have his gun back, the report stated. Roberts told the sheriff’s deputy that he had his gun on the playground and must have dropped it when he went to get his son.
Roberts has a concealed weapons permit, but signs at the entrances to Plaza Fiesta said no weapons were allowed, the report stated. Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice because he brought the gun into Plaza Fiesta.

http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/815507.html


Found this on the national page (Penn.). Seems the sign was enough in this case for an arrest. We will see how a trial goes. Fair warning, a sign may be enough of a notice to charge for trespassing. As far as I know it's untested in Michigan, but eleswhere look out.
 

karlmc10

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Gaylord, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:
karlmc10 wrote:
I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.
Which is swell for those that have a license but many don't what then?
Then they should apply for one if they want to shop there. I'm not against OC. I OC when I feel it's appropriate for me to do so. I make no judgements of others. That said, if you go to private property, and they don't want you to walk around thier property OCing then that is their right wether you and I agree with it or not. It's still private property. If I own a party store and I post a sign that says "No purple shirts" then guess what, you won't openly wear a purple shirt in my store. If you cover it up I won't know and we are both good to go. If you want it changed, write the letters, make the calls, shop elsewhere, but always remember their rights to govorn their private property count too.
 

Venator

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karlmc10 wrote:
Venator wrote:
karlmc10 wrote:
I'm not an attorney but.... From everything I've read and been told by those that should know, those signs are meaningless. They have to ask you to leave and then you must comply or face tresspassing charges. I know this is an open carry forum but I would think that most here would agree that if it comes down to CC or no means of SD then you CC. on the few occasions I go to malls or anywhere else they have those signs I CC, get what I'm after and leave. That is, of course, if I can't get the same thing elsewhere more gun friendly.
Which is swell for those that have a license but many don't what then?
Then they should apply for one if they want to shop there. I'm not against OC. I OC when I feel it's appropriate for me to do so. I make no judgements of others. That said, if you go to private property, and they don't want you to walk around thier property OCing then that is their right wether you and I agree with it or not. It's still private property. If I own a party store and I post a sign that says "No purple shirts" then guess what, you won't openly wear a purple shirt in my store. If you cover it up I won't know and we are both good to go. If you want it changed, write the letters, make the calls, shop elsewhere, but always remember their rights to govorn their private property count too.

My point was your assumption that only people with CPLs carry guns. I was pointing out that there are many that don't have CPLs. It's arrogant tosay that they should get one. Not everyone can afford a CPL orhave the timeto take the training, othersrefuse to pay a CPL tax to the government for a right that already allows them to carry, some are under 21 and can't get a CPL. There may be many reason a person doesn't have or wanta CPL, stop thinking only about"me" and look at the bigger picture.

I agree with private property rights, if they don't want guns, fine, you can always shop somewhere else.
 

JeffSayers

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Venator wrote:
A Lancaster man was arrested over the weekend after he left his loaded pistol at a Fort Mill playground and a 7-year-old girl found it, according to a York County Sheriff’s Office report.
A deputy was called to Plaza Fiesta just after 1:45 p.m. Saturday by a man who said a 7-year-old girl had given him a gun that she found on the playground.
The weapon was fully loaded when the girl discovered it, the report stated.
Later, 31-year-old Anthony Roberts asked a security guard if he could have his gun back, the report stated. Roberts told the sheriff’s deputy that he had his gun on the playground and must have dropped it when he went to get his son.
Roberts has a concealed weapons permit, but signs at the entrances to Plaza Fiesta said no weapons were allowed, the report stated. Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice because he brought the gun into Plaza Fiesta.

This guy should be arrested for recklessly endangering the public by means of being an idiot.

Seriously folks, wouldn't the world be a better place if people this simple were sterilized before they had the opportunity to breed, or am I just a jerk?
 

Venator

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JeffSayers wrote:
Venator wrote:
A Lancaster man was arrested over the weekend after he left his loaded pistol at a Fort Mill playground and a 7-year-old girl found it, according to a York County Sheriff’s Office report.
A deputy was called to Plaza Fiesta just after 1:45 p.m. Saturday by a man who said a 7-year-old girl had given him a gun that she found on the playground.
The weapon was fully loaded when the girl discovered it, the report stated.
Later, 31-year-old Anthony Roberts asked a security guard if he could have his gun back, the report stated. Roberts told the sheriff’s deputy that he had his gun on the playground and must have dropped it when he went to get his son.
Roberts has a concealed weapons permit, but signs at the entrances to Plaza Fiesta said no weapons were allowed, the report stated. Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice because he brought the gun into Plaza Fiesta.

This guy should be arrested for recklessly endangering the public by means of being an idiot.

Seriously folks, wouldn't the world be a better place if people this simple were sterilized before they had the opportunity to breed, or am I just a jerk?
Are you a Jerk? I don't know, but I do know we all make mistakes. Forgiveness sometimes is needed.
 

jfrenchudm

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It is my understanding that in the state of Michigan,the signage holds weight in court (no matter how hard you have to look for the verbage). You would probably be tried fortresspass, and sent on your way. If you disagree with this, write your legislators, I know Ihave, on several occassions.


WhileI agree (with the philosophy and the fact) that because the mall is "private" property, they can reject any persons (based on anything besides race or sex)from their propertythey please, we should be given prior notification of their wishes. Ohio has a law that spells out what the signage must look like (I encountered them at the rest areas on my way to PA), which makes it very clear to persons entering the building that firearms are not permitted.
 

dougwg

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Hrmmm... I would think they would charge him with "reckless endangerment".

We can forgive him later, after gets a slap up side the head for this F'up.

If I had done this I can see my CPL being revoked for awhile. I would expect nothing less.
 

JeffSayers

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Yea I know. But that is a pretty darnbig mistake.I know I can be kinda quick to pass judgement (yes I do acknowledge this is a flaw) but when people are so irresponsible with something so important; wellit just ruins it for all of the responsible people.

For what itis worth, if I were to do something like that and it resulted in a worst case scenario, I feel society would be justified in imposing capitol punishment upon me.I guess the only silver lining in this is that the little girl had theresponsibility to bring the weapon to an adult and prevent that situation.
 

Venator

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dougwg wrote:
Hrmmm... I would think they would charge him with "reckless endangerment".

We can forgive him later, after gets a slap up side the head for this F'up.

If I had done this I can see my CPL being revoked for awhile. I would expect nothing less.
I would think they are not done charging him. It all will depend on his particular circumstances.

I agree, it was a bad mistake, I just believe that he who is without mistakes can cast the first aspersions, I know it won't be me.;) Swimming pools left open, keys in cars, dead hookers in the trunk...ah...er...perhaps I've said too much.
 

JeffSayers

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Venator wrote:
dougwg wrote:
Hrmmm... I would think they would charge him with "reckless endangerment".

We can forgive him later, after gets a slap up side the head for this F'up.

If I had done this I can see my CPL being revoked for awhile. I would expect nothing less.
I would think they are not done charging him. It all will depend on his particular circumstances.

I agree, it was a bad mistake, I just believe that he who is without mistakes can cast the first aspersions, I know it won't be me.;) Swimming pools left open, keys in cars, dead hookers in the trunk...ah...er...perhaps I've said too much.
HEY! How'd you find out about the hoo... nevermind.
 

Rogue9er

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May 11, 2008
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Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Venator wrote:
A Lancaster man was arrested over the weekend after he left his loaded pistol at a Fort Mill playground and a 7-year-old girl found it, according to a York County Sheriff’s Office report.
A deputy was called to Plaza Fiesta just after 1:45 p.m. Saturday by a man who said a 7-year-old girl had given him a gun that she found on the playground.
The weapon was fully loaded when the girl discovered it, the report stated.
Later, 31-year-old Anthony Roberts asked a security guard if he could have his gun back, the report stated. Roberts told the sheriff’s deputy that he had his gun on the playground and must have dropped it when he went to get his son.
Roberts has a concealed weapons permit, but signs at the entrances to Plaza Fiesta said no weapons were allowed, the report stated. Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice because he brought the gun into Plaza Fiesta.

http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/815507.html


Found this on the national page (Penn.). Seems the sign was enough in this case for an arrest. We will see how a trial goes. Fair warning, a sign may be enough of a notice to charge for trespassing. As far as I know it's untested in Michigan, but eleswhere look out.
I'm gonna have to go ask the guys at PAFOA about that one, because that's the opposite of what they've been saying.
 

Rogue9er

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That story is actually from SC, and I don't know the laws there so it's entirely possible that signs hold legal weight there. By contrast, the ones in PA absolutely do not.

So what we've determined in this thread is that Michigan is a gray area, and the best policy would be to either not carry or not get caught. Correct?
 

PT111

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, South Carolina, USA
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Yes, the story is from Lanaster, SC not Lancaster, PA. In SC the signs, if they meet legal requirements, are considered sufficient notice that if you are caught ignoring them you can be charged immediately with trespassing. That is what this fellow was charged with. I doubt that any additional charges will be forthcoming but by asking for his gun he admitted that he had carried in violation of the signs.

BTW - This playground was inside of a mall that was posted. It was not an outside playground.
 

SpringerXDacp

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Venator wrote:
A Lancaster man was arrested over the weekend after he left his loaded pistol at a Fort Mill playground and a 7-year-old girl found it, according to a York County Sheriff’s Office report.
A deputy was called to Plaza Fiesta just after 1:45 p.m. Saturday by a man who said a 7-year-old girl had given him a gun that she found on the playground.
The weapon was fully loaded when the girl discovered it, the report stated.
Later, 31-year-old Anthony Roberts asked a security guard if he could have his gun back, the report stated. Roberts told the sheriff’s deputy that he had his gun on the playground and must have dropped it when he went to get his son.
Roberts has a concealed weapons permit, but signs at the entrances to Plaza Fiesta said no weapons were allowed, the report stated. Roberts was charged with trespassing after notice because he brought the gun into Plaza Fiesta.

http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/815507.html


Found this on the national page (Penn.). Seems the sign was enough in this case for an arrest. We will see how a trial goes. Fair warning, a sign may be enough of a notice to charge for trespassing. As far as I know it's untested in Michigan, but eleswhere look out.
This is an issue that Jim Simmons has been trying to get across to all who OC and CC for quite some time. It has been said, in the past, that carrying into an establishment which prohibits firearms (weapons) and provides signs that technically, at the point when you enter, you are trespassing. Now, Imay or may not agree with this, but it appears, based on the article, that signs may very well carry some weight. However, I have not found any laws where this (posting signs) is etched in stone.
 
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