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Thread: Interesting thing happened while OC'ing at the Capitol today.....

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Decided to meet the wife downtown today for lunch and she suggested a little cafe inside the Capitol building called Meriweathers....(The roast beef and carmelized onion sandwich was outstanding!) Not having OC'ed in the Cap before, I decided to give it a try.....

    We entered the Capitol from the Bank St. entrance. I approached the magno and handed my CHP and DL to the officer. He asked me to hold on for a moment because he said that he had to check to see if the policy had changed yet. It seems that this is the same officer that was working the GAB on the 9th when a group went for the Crime Commission hearing.

    He contacted his supervisor by phone who told him (apparently) that everything was fine and nothing had changed. The officer then apologized for the delay and said that he just wanted to double check because he had heard that there was going to be some kind of policy change coming in the "next few weeks" and he didnt want to proceed on the wrong information. He was extremely professional and polite the entire time and thewhole encounter took maybe 2-3 minutes. I appreciated his position, professionalism and desire to make sure that he was doing things correctly.

    We ate in Meriweathers and walked around the Capitol buiding a bit and not a word was said or shocked look received. At one point we were in a glass elevator with a group of foreign tourists. I expected some shock and awe but they either didnt notice or didnt care. All in all, it was fairly uneventful as it should be.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Glad all went well. Always a good thing.

    I am, however, disturbed regarding the policy changing "in the next few weeks". If I am not mistaken, the only way that firearms could be banned from the state Capitol would be by a legislative bill being introduced in the General Assembly. Since the next session doesn't start until January, any policy that they put in place would be unlawful.

    Maybe a memo explaining things was not concise. Perhaps the officer's understanding of a memo was innaccurate. Maybe it's just rumors ruing in the grapevine. Who knows? However, if this talk keeps continuing, we may want to look out for a bill like this being introduced.

    Am I mistaken?

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    vrwmiller wrote:
    Glad all went well. Always a good thing.

    I am, however, disturbed regarding the policy changing "in the next few weeks". If I am not mistaken, the only way that firearms could be banned from the state Capitol would be by a legislative bill being introduced in the General Assembly. Since the next session doesn't start until January, any policy that they put in place would be unlawful.

    Maybe a memo explaining things was not concise. Perhaps the officer's understanding of a memo was innaccurate. Maybe it's just rumors ruing in the grapevine. Who knows? However, if this talk keeps continuing, we may want to look out for a bill like this being introduced.

    Am I mistaken?
    I'm not so sure about that. It's beeen a few years but as I recall, either the house or Senate has a committee that makes the rules for the building. I don't remember it requiring a vote by the General Assembly.

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    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    It's not that the policy would be changed about carrying, with a CHP. Apparently, the Capitol Police's SOP was written that if you have a CHP you may carry CONCEALED in the Capitol (and/or GAB - I was only advised about the GAB on Tuesday).

    Capitol Police Chief Kim Lettner agreed to look at the matter. I have written her separately, as I was the only one asked to conceal, and the only woman open carrying. In the interest of full disclosure, though, one of our members challenged the officer's request immediately, so perhaps he just didn't want to make the request of those who came in after me.

    I am awaiting a response from Chief Lettner. Should it set out different rules for carry inside the capitol building from outside, I will determine a course of action at that time.
    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Tess wrote:
    It's not that the policy would be changed about carrying, with a CHP. Apparently, the Capitol Police's SOP was written that if you have a CHP you may carry CONCEALED in the Capitol (and/or GAB - I was only advised about the GAB on Tuesday).

    Capitol Police Chief Kim Lettner agreed to look at the matter. I have written her separately, as I was the only one asked to conceal, and the only woman open carrying. In the interest of full disclosure, though, one of our members challenged the officer's request immediately, so perhaps he just didn't want to make the request of those who came in after me.

    I am awaiting a response from Chief Lettner. Should it set out different rules for carry inside the capitol building from outside, I will determine a course of action at that time.
    I was with Tess and Chief Lettner when the conversation with the chiefoccurred. Chief Lettner was exceptionally professional and polite. One of our members was quite insistent, and she remained extraordinarily calm.

    I am *hoping* that the officer heard about the minor scene in the lobby, and heard the policy was being looked into and possibly changed. With any luck, the change is the SOP'sclarification regardingopen carry with a CHP being permitted.



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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Also wrote a letter to Chief Lettner requesting cites for authorization for "signing in" when attending public meetings and for request/requirement to only CC in the GA Bldg.

    Skidmark and I tried to find the Joint Resolution werein this handgun policy was delineated. Even after checking with the Archive Library and the Print Shop, we came away empty handed. However, after I got home I was able to download a copy of the original clerks note and the record of the commitee's vote! The effective date of this resolution was 4/1/04 and nothing restricts open carry. Unfortunately, I am not home right now and will not be until Sunday evening so I cannot post this copy.

    Someone else may be able to track it down with the effective date - I believe I picked up the initial reference from VCDL archives.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Also wrote a letter to Chief Lettner requesting cites for authorization for "signing in" when attending public meetings and for request/requirement to only CC in the GA Bldg.

    Skidmark and I tried to find the Joint Resolution werein this handgun policy was delineated. Even after checking with the Archive Library and the Print Shop, we came away empty handed. However, after I got home I was able to download a copy of the original clerks note and the record of the commitee's vote! The effective date of this resolution was 4/1/04 and nothing restricts open carry. Unfortunately, I am not home right now and will not be until Sunday evening so I cannot post this copy.

    Someone else may be able to track it down with the effective date - I believe I picked up the initial reference from VCDL archives.

    Yata hey
    This is where this group shines. Thanks Grapeshot!

    There was a lot to that resolution. I don't remember if it is mentioned in it or by the CP, but lockers were supposed to be provided for non CHP people.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Joint Rules Commitee Resolution
    Firearms in General Assembly Building

    No mention of concealed carry only - just permit holders allowed.

    Note that there are two (2) pages to the attachment.

    Now somebody please find the documented, recorded Rule (Public Safety?) I've drawn a blank over the last hour.

    Yata hey

    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I open carried at the Virginia Capitol today (Sig .40). Completely uneventful. Apparently Ispoke withthe same capitol police officer who had to call to get instructions when ProShooter visited a few weeks back. I only know that because the officer smiled and ASKED ME what the rules were at the xray machine and when I told him he said "oh yah, that's what I thought, we had a guy a few weeks ago in here open carrying and I was pretty sure that's right. You just can't carry in the Senate room". The officer was extremely non-chalant and positive. He then turned to the (non-officer) guy who actually looks at the xray images on the conveyer belt and said "right?" and that guy said he had no idea.

    The restored Capitol is GORGEOUS and they allow you to take pictures. I really enjoyed my tour, and encourage others to check it out. The grounds were also beautiful, and the day couldn't have been more perfect.

    I also open carried at the Virginia State Library today - no big deal as usual.


    PS - Unusually for me, I was NOT wearing a dress shirt and tie today. Just blue jeans and a casual collared shirt and two days stubble (95% of the time I open carry I happen to be coming to or from work and I have a tie on, which I thinkmakes a difference inothers perceptions of any open carrier).

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
    I open carried at the Virginia Capitol today (Sig .40). Completely uneventful. Apparently Ispoke withthe same capitol police officer who had to call to get instructions when ProShooter visited a few weeks back. I only know that because the officer smiled and ASKED ME what the rules were at the xray machine and when I told him he said "oh yah, that's what I thought, we had a guy a few weeks ago in here open carrying and I was pretty sure that's right. You just can't carry in the Senate room". The officer was extremely non-chalant and positive. He then turned to the (non-officer) guy who actually looks at the xray images on the conveyer belt and said "right?" and that guy said he had no idea.

    The restored Capitol is GORGEOUS and they allow you to take pictures. I really enjoyed my tour, and encourage others to check it out. The grounds were also beautiful, and the day couldn't have been more perfect.

    I also open carried at the Virginia State Library today - no big deal as usual.


    PS - Unusually for me, I was NOT wearing a dress shirt and tie today. Just blue jeans and a casual collared shirt and two days stubble (95% of the time I open carry I happen to be coming to or from work and I have a tie on, which I thinkmakes a difference inothers perceptions of any open carrier).
    You and your pistol envy. You need to just go out and buy you one. lol

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Decided to meet the wife downtown today for lunch and she suggested a little cafe inside the Capitol building called Meriweathers....(The roast beef and carmelized onion sandwich was outstanding!) Not having OC'ed in the Cap before, I decided to give it a try.....

    We entered the Capitol from the Bank St. entrance. I approached the magno and handed my CHP and DL to the officer. He asked me to hold on for a moment because he said that he had to check to see if the policy had changed yet. It seems that this is the same officer that was working the GAB on the 9th when a group went for the Crime Commission hearing.

    He contacted his supervisor by phone who told him (apparently) that everything was fine and nothing had changed. The officer then apologized for the delay and said that he just wanted to double check because he had heard that there was going to be some kind of policy change coming in the "next few weeks" and he didnt want to proceed on the wrong information. He was extremely professional and polite the entire time and thewhole encounter took maybe 2-3 minutes. I appreciated his position, professionalism and desire to make sure that he was doing things correctly.

    We ate in Meriweathers and walked around the Capitol buiding a bit and not a word was said or shocked look received. At one point we were in a glass elevator with a group of foreign tourists. I expected some shock and awe but they either didnt notice or didnt care. All in all, it was fairly uneventful as it should be.
    Slight memory of a possible policy change is very slim reason to detain a valid permit holderfor 2 or 3 minutes. When gun policy changes occur, they occur with great formality and fanfare so that they are widely and thoroghly understood. But in a fascisty world, we can never be too safe.

    Monday I rode at 17 mph behind a school bus in a 25 zone for quite some distance. 25 is safe by law, but 17 is 8 mph safer, and safer is better, isn't it? (Never stopped once.)

    You're used to seeing the "We card under 25" sign in the local convenience store? I saw a "We card under 40" sign once. The law says 21 for purchase of alcohol, but safer is better, and we can't chance it that a 20 year old who looks 40 might try to buy alcohol illegally.



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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Decided to meet the wife downtown today for lunch and she suggested a little cafe inside the Capitol building called Meriweathers....(The roast beef and carmelized onion sandwich was outstanding!) Not having OC'ed in the Cap before, I decided to give it a try.....

    We entered the Capitol from the Bank St. entrance. I approached the magno and handed my CHP and DL to the officer. He asked me to hold on for a moment because he said that he had to check to see if the policy had changed yet. It seems that this is the same officer that was working the GAB on the 9th when a group went for the Crime Commission hearing.

    He contacted his supervisor by phone who told him (apparently) that everything was fine and nothing had changed. The officer then apologized for the delay and said that he just wanted to double check because he had heard that there was going to be some kind of policy change coming in the "next few weeks" and he didnt want to proceed on the wrong information. He was extremely professional and polite the entire time and thewhole encounter took maybe 2-3 minutes. I appreciated his position, professionalism and desire to make sure that he was doing things correctly.

    We ate in Meriweathers and walked around the Capitol buiding a bit and not a word was said or shocked look received. At one point we were in a glass elevator with a group of foreign tourists. I expected some shock and awe but they either didnt notice or didnt care. All in all, it was fairly uneventful as it should be.
    Slight memory of a possible policy change is very slim reason to detain a valid permit holderfor 2 or 3 minutes. When gun policy changes occur, they occur with great formality and fanfare so that they are widely and thoroghly understood. But in a fascisty world, we can never be too safe.

    Monday I rode at 17 mph behind a school bus in a 25 zone for quite some distance. 25 is safe by law, but 17 is 8 mph safer, and safer is better, isn't it? (Never stopped once.)

    You're used to seeing the "We card under 25" sign in the local convenience store? I saw a "We card under 40" sign once. The law says 21 for purchase of alcohol, but safer is better, and we can't chance it that a 20 year old who looks 40 might try to buy alcohol illegally.

    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    ProShooter wrote:
    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Decided to meet the wife downtown today for lunch and she suggested a little cafe inside the Capitol building called Meriweathers....(The roast beef and carmelized onion sandwich was outstanding!) Not having OC'ed in the Cap before, I decided to give it a try.....

    We entered the Capitol from the Bank St. entrance. I approached the magno and handed my CHP and DL to the officer. He asked me to hold on for a moment because he said that he had to check to see if the policy had changed yet. It seems that this is the same officer that was working the GAB on the 9th when a group went for the Crime Commission hearing.

    He contacted his supervisor by phone who told him (apparently) that everything was fine and nothing had changed. The officer then apologized for the delay and said that he just wanted to double check because he had heard that there was going to be some kind of policy change coming in the "next few weeks" and he didnt want to proceed on the wrong information. He was extremely professional and polite the entire time and thewhole encounter took maybe 2-3 minutes. I appreciated his position, professionalism and desire to make sure that he was doing things correctly.

    We ate in Meriweathers and walked around the Capitol buiding a bit and not a word was said or shocked look received. At one point we were in a glass elevator with a group of foreign tourists. I expected some shock and awe but they either didnt notice or didnt care. All in all, it was fairly uneventful as it should be.
    Slight memory of a possible policy change is very slim reason to detain a valid permit holderfor 2 or 3 minutes. When gun policy changes occur, they occur with great formality and fanfare so that they are widely and thoroghly understood. But in a fascisty world, we can never be too safe.

    Monday I rode at 17 mph behind a school bus in a 25 zone for quite some distance. 25 is safe by law, but 17 is 8 mph safer, and safer is better, isn't it? (Never stopped once.)

    You're used to seeing the "We card under 25" sign in the local convenience store? I saw a "We card under 40" sign once. The law says 21 for purchase of alcohol, but safer is better, and we can't chance it that a 20 year old who looks 40 might try to buy alcohol illegally.

    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.





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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained. In this case, it is doing his job as set forth by the Joint Rules Committee.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.



    You are required to show CHP - is this being detained - No

    Officer wanted to get clarification - is this being detained - No

    I do not subscribe to manufacturing problems not in evidence - are we mind readers: "maybe - intended to mess with you, doesn't like the law, didn't like your looks." IMO - statements like this do nothing for seeking cooperation.

    ProShooter didn't view it as being detained, why would anybody else? He is no neophyte.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained. In this case, it is doing his job as set forth by the Joint Rules Committee.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.



    You are required to show CHP - is this being detained - No

    Officer wanted to get clarification - is this being detained - No

    I do not subscribe to manufacturing problems not in evidence - are we mind readers: "maybe - intended to mess with you, doesn't like the law, didn't like your looks." IMO - statements like this do nothing for seeking cooperation.

    ProShooter didn't view it as being detained, why would anybody else? He is no neophyte.

    Yata hey
    I view it as being detained because the person produced his identification and his permit but was not given them back until the security guard messed aroundwith him some. It is not the role of security professionals to hem and haw about what policy states while holding a person's credentials and preventing him or her from leaving the building or proceeding ahead.

    It is a form of harassment that attempts to fly below the radar.If the officer had cocked his head back and waved the ID and permit in his hand as an inquisitor, then we'd know that to be harassment. He didn't do that, but he also didn't respect the permit holder by feining ignorance ofa policy that is well understood by all.

    Think about it. Since when doesalaw enforcement agency have ambiguous policies on who can carry a gun into a building?

    The guard wrongly detained and harassed ProShooter, and ProShooter isn't aware of it.

    Promoting the awareness of rights and how those rights are to be respected are all a part of protecting the 2nd Amendment.







  16. #16
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained. In this case, it is doing his job as set forth by the Joint Rules Committee.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.



    You are required to show CHP - is this being detained - No

    Officer wanted to get clarification - is this being detained - No

    I do not subscribe to manufacturing problems not in evidence - are we mind readers: "maybe - intended to mess with you, doesn't like the law, didn't like your looks." IMO - statements like this do nothing for seeking cooperation.

    ProShooter didn't view it as being detained, why would anybody else? He is no neophyte.

    Yata hey

    Grapeshot said it better than I could. There is a fineline between someone getting clarification on a policyand actually being detained. I know the difference because I have done both. This in no way was a case of being detained.



    You also said.....

    "I view it as being detained because the person produced his identification and his permit but was not given them back until the security guard messed aroundwith him some. It is not the role of security professionals to hem and haw about what policy states while holding a person's credentials and preventing him or her from leaving the building or proceeding ahead.

    It is a form of harassment that attempts to fly below the radar.If the officer had cocked his head back and waved the ID and permit in his hand as an inquisitor? We'd know that to be harassment. He didn't do that, but he also didn't respect the permit holder by feining ignorance ofa policy that is well understood by all.


    Think about it. Since when doesalaw enforcement agency have ambiguous policies on who can carry a gun into a building?

    The guard wrongly detained and harassed ProShooter, and ProShooter isn't aware of it.


    The "security guard" that you spoke of is a Capitol Police Officer. As a former LEO andalso a taxpayer, I congratulate him for taking a moment to ensure that he was proceeding in the correct manner. Havent we read ad nauseum here about LEO's making a rash and incorrect decision/statement? Wouldnt we all like it better if they took a moment to be sure of their actions/response? The police cannot possibly be able to recite every single law and/or policy off the top of their heads. Its expected that if he was unsure, he should ask a supervisor. No one "hemmed and hawed" about policy. He immediately picked up the phone and made a call. He did not prevent me from leaving if I chose to. For you to assume that the officer was "feining ignorance ofa policy that is well understood by all" is EXTREMELY presumptuous on your part, because you weren't there!

    Believe me, after 12 years in law enforcement, I've been harassed by the best, from petty thief to mass murderer. I know it when I see it, and this wasnt even close.....

    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
    Glock Certified Armorer
    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

  17. #17
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    matt605 wrote:
    Think about it. Since when doesalaw enforcement agency have ambiguous policies on who can carry a gun into a building?
    No difference here than if you tried to carry into a Federal Court building.

    This agency, The Capital Police, may have ambiguous policies but this is not one of them.

    The Virginia General Assembly passed a joint resolution that allows only CHP holders to enter the General Assembly Building and the state Capital Building carrying a handgun. The officers at the enterance are doing their job as directed. There has been some discussion as to the legality of OC (it is) and this officer was simply seeking confirmation because of recent questions.

    You do not indicate in your profile in what state you reside. I presume that it is not Virginia for your appear lacking in knowledge of our laws and circumstances. That is all the more reason to not make off the wall statements that have no factual basis.

    Responding that "ProShooter isn't aware" moves from the ridiculous to the absurd. He has more knowlege and hands on experience than you possibly ever will. More importantly, it is his call not yours, sir. Choose a more worth while event.

    Yata hey



    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained. In this case, it is doing his job as set forth by the Joint Rules Committee.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.



    You are required to show CHP - is this being detained - No

    Officer wanted to get clarification - is this being detained - No

    I do not subscribe to manufacturing problems not in evidence - are we mind readers: "maybe - intended to mess with you, doesn't like the law, didn't like your looks." IMO - statements like this do nothing for seeking cooperation.

    ProShooter didn't view it as being detained, why would anybody else? He is no neophyte.

    Yata hey

    Grapeshot said it better than I could. There is a fineline between someone getting clarification on a policyand actually being detained. I know the difference because I have done both. This in no way was a case of being detained.



    You also said.....

    "I view it as being detained because the person produced his identification and his permit but was not given them back until the security guard messed aroundwith him some. It is not the role of security professionals to hem and haw about what policy states while holding a person's credentials and preventing him or her from leaving the building or proceeding ahead.

    It is a form of harassment that attempts to fly below the radar.If the officer had cocked his head back and waved the ID and permit in his hand as an inquisitor? We'd know that to be harassment. He didn't do that, but he also didn't respect the permit holder by feining ignorance ofa policy that is well understood by all.


    Think about it. Since when doesalaw enforcement agency have ambiguous policies on who can carry a gun into a building?

    The guard wrongly detained and harassed ProShooter, and ProShooter isn't aware of it.


    The "security guard" that you spoke of is a Capitol Police Officer. As a former LEO andalso a taxpayer, I congratulate him for taking a moment to ensure that he was proceeding in the correct manner. Havent we read ad nauseum here about LEO's making a rash and incorrect decision/statement? Wouldnt we all like it better if they took a moment to be sure of their actions/response? The police cannot possibly be able to recite every single law and/or policy off the top of their heads. Its expected that if he was unsure, he should ask a supervisor. No one "hemmed and hawed" about policy. He immediately picked up the phone and made a call. He did not prevent me from leaving if I chose to. For you to assume that the officer was "feining ignorance ofa policy that is well understood by all" is EXTREMELY presumptuous on your part, because you weren't there!

    Believe me, after 12 years in law enforcement, I've been harassed by the best, from petty thief to mass murderer. I know it when I see it, and this wasnt even close.....

    OK, cops aren't expected toknow the rules on who can carry a gun into a building with a magnotometer. If you cannot leave without your permit and your ID in hand, then you are detained.

    You were harassed and didn't even know it. Petty theives and mass murderers don't understand how to harass, condescend, and intimidate people without acting in blatantly anti-social,overtly hostile and astonishingly aggressive ways. Maybe that's how they became criminals in the first place. To the contrary, no one is better skilled at manipulating average citizenswithin the bounds of polite behavior than the police man.

    I'm not saying criminals and cops are flip sides of the same coin. I'mjust saying you're not aware how some members of your ownguild practice their trade.





  19. #19
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    matt605 wrote:

    snipped all - as not worth repeating
    You've earned your "T" either through intentional baiting or willingly ignoring facts. Believe I just let you blow away.
    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  20. #20
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    OK, cops aren't expected toknow the rules on who can carry a gun into a building with a magnotometer. If you cannot leave without your permit and your ID in hand, then you are detained.

    You were harassed and didn't even know it. Petty theives and mass murderers don't understand how to harass, condescend, and intimidate people without acting in blatantly anti-social,overtly hostile and astonishingly aggressive ways. Maybe that's how they became criminals in the first place. To the contrary, no one is better skilled at manipulating average citizenswithin the bounds of polite behavior than the police man.

    I'm not saying criminals and cops are flip sides of the same coin. I'mjust saying you're not aware how some members of your ownguild practice their trade.



    The term "clueless" does not even come close to describing your reasoning and thought process in this matter. You are so far off the mark on this that I dont think it even bears arguing about it anymore.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
    Concealed Firearms Instructor for Virginia, Florida & Utah permits.
    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
    Sabre Red Pepper Spray Instructor
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    I've been in the building a dozen or more times carrying concelaed with a permit and never had a problem. I'm sorry for those of you who did on that day. It is not the norm.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    matt605 wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    I didnt view it as being detained....so no harm, no foul.
    No offense intended, and none taken as you say. But were you free to leave while he had your identificationand handgun permit? Were you free to proceed to see your representative while he had your identity and handgunpermit? An officer does something to restrict your going or coming, then that's being detained. In this case, it is doing his job as set forth by the Joint Rules Committee.

    Maybe he just intended to mess with you a little because he doesn't like the law that protects your 2nd Amendment freedoms. Or because he didn't like your looks.



    You are required to show CHP - is this being detained - No

    Officer wanted to get clarification - is this being detained - No

    I do not subscribe to manufacturing problems not in evidence - are we mind readers: "maybe - intended to mess with you, doesn't like the law, didn't like your looks." IMO - statements like this do nothing for seeking cooperation.

    ProShooter didn't view it as being detained, why would anybody else? He is no neophyte.

    Yata hey
    I agree 100%. IWAS NOT DETAINED!

    It is ridiculous to read my post and think I was detained, or to tell me what happened to me.

    The officer was very friendly and later smiled and asked me how I enjoyedthe visitas I left. I thought of the whole experience as an indicator of just how little the officer was concerned about my openly carried firearm! He took my word on thepolicy when it vaguely jived with what he recalled.



  23. #23
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    matt605 wrote:
    You're used to seeing the "We card under 25" sign in the local convenience store? I saw a "We card under 40" sign once. The law says 21 for purchase of alcohol, but safer is better, and we can't chance it that a 20 year old who looks 40 might try to buy alcohol illegally.

    Be happy. In Georgia they card "everyone", even if you're 90!!! I guess just to be fair to everyone :^).

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    I was one of the people that open carried on Sep 9 to the Crime Commission meeting. Not detained, not harassed, just CHECKED. Took about a minute, because there was a line. State Troopers were professional and correct, until one of the senior ones gave testimony to the Commission that was obviously biased and from the looks of the members of the Commission they knew it. Not quite a lie, but not far from it... Delagate Albo even commented very pointedly to the audience at the hearing that those of carrying were 'the good guys, and not a problem'.

    Walked across town with Phil VanCleave for lunch, no problems. Came back and toured the Capitol, still OCing, and even looked into the governor's office. No problems, but then, the governor was out...

  25. #25
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    F Y I they are Capital Police not State Troopers. However the uniforms look very similar. They are the authority having jurisdiction on all state property other than VCU/MCU. VSP is the provider of security for the Governor and his family.

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