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  1. #1
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    I had a crazy encounter at a friends place a few weeks ago.

    We were all hanging outin the basement shooting pool. We were sipping on some Chardonnay and all ofa sudden wehear a loud tud upstairs on the third level. Now we all ( 4 guys) knew no one was upstairs. And I was conceal-carrying but the only problem was that my sidearm was in my duty-carry bag. I grabbed a hold of it and cocked it. By now three guys were already running upstairs and they are all armed with sidearms as well. By the time i got up they opened fire and that was my cue . I knew something went wrong . I run outside and i see two young kids maybe in their early 20's whizzed right past me and i took aim , but i didn't fire. The reason we were drinking ......

    Local PD were called eventually and were told as to the status of the situation.

    My question .....????

    Are you allowed to open fire while drinking in someone's private property to whom that person has given you consent...??????

    Or are you simply not allowed to fire upon period with alcohol in your system...????

    What are the ROE's...??????



    Any suggestions....???????????



    Marine2000





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    I think the same rules apply concerning if your life or the life of someone else is threatened, then you are fine on drawing and firing. Your friends apparently felt they were threatened enough to fire, but did you? You said they whizzed by you so I take that they were running away. You'd have a tough time explaining that you were firing on someone running away from you. IMO, it doesn't matter if you've had a beer or two, if you're life is threatened, then defend yourself as you see fit. You can defend yourself in court afterwards, but you're a silent witness if you're dead.

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    First, I would say that it was a good thing that you did not fire. Virginia does not subscribe to the home castle doctrine... we have that 'duty to retreat' if possible thing. Since you say the kids were past you, I interpret that to mean they were already attempting to flee - signifying there was nothreat to your life. Had you fired and hit one of them, you may have found yourself being charged with malicious wounding, or worse since you would not be able to claim self-defense.

    As to your direct question - I would hazard to say (I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...) that since you were on private property, possessing a weapon with the permission of the owner / resident... you do not fall under concealed carry restrictions in regards to alcohol. In fact, if youwere standing in the yard withyour sidearm in presentation mode, you weren't 'concealed' anyway at this point.

    However -If you had fired and hit or possible killed one of the kids in their attempt to flee - and as a result were criminally charged - a Commonwealth's Attorney would likely make a big deal of out of your BAC level. Especially so, if you were found to be 'legally' intoxicated.

    There's right, there's wrong, and then there's the fine fuzzy line of the law. That's why we have lawyers.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Armed wrote:
    First, I would say that it was a good thing that you did not fire. Virginia does not subscribe to the home castle doctrine... we have that 'duty to retreat' if possible thing. Since you say the kids were past you, I interpret that to mean they were already attempting to flee - signifying there was nothreat to your life. Had you fired and hit one of them, you may have found yourself being charged with malicious wounding, or worse since you would not be able to claim self-defense.

    As to your direct question - I would hazard to say (I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...) that since you were on private property, possessing a weapon with the permission of the owner / resident... you do not fall under concealed carry restrictions in regards to alcohol. In fact, if youwere standing in the yard withyour sidearm in presentation mode, you weren't 'concealed' anyway at this point.

    However -If you had fired and hit or possible killed one of the kids in their attempt to flee - and as a result were criminally charged - a Commonwealth's Attorney would likely make a big deal of out of your BAC level. Especially so, if you were found to be 'legally' intoxicated.

    There's right, there's wrong, and then there's the fine fuzzy line of the law. That's why we have lawyers.
    What Armed said.....and ..my question. There were at least 3 of you upstairs right away. There can't be but so many ways out of the place. The kids apparently weren't armed.

    Why would any of you shoot at them. Shoot them, you go to jail. Beat the hell out of them and I doubt they'd be back and generally B&E suspects don't call the cops over a few broken bones.

    Shooting someone needs to be reserved for really serious things, like saving your life!

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    My question on the scene would be...

    "Why did you need to discharge your weapon at them while they were running away from you?"

    If there were in the house and not running out the door...

    "Why did you feel it was necessary to shoot?"


  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member Tess's Avatar
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    The law does address under the influence in a public place, by a holder of a CHP. On private property, I found no reference. There is no law that you have to be stone-cold sober to defend yourself.

    I have to say that if I were the bad guy's attorney (or his family's, if you kill him), I would be pressing for all I was worth that since you had been drinking, your judgment was impaired and you were not able to determine that your life or safety was threatened.

    Would it work? Dunno. Would probably depend on the judge and jury and many other factors. But do you want to face it?

    Absent a direct threat to my life or someone else's, I would not be firing in that circumstance. I would even be attacking your statement "they opened fire" -- three guys with guns, two intruders ...... I'd be on that like white on rice.

    Laws alone can not secure freedom of expression; in order that every man present his views without penalty there must be spirit of tolerance in the entire population. -Albert Einstein

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    Even the cleanest, most straight as an arrow, lawyers would probably remind you that you hadn't been drinking beforehand, but that the shooting incident took such an emotional toll on you that you had to have a drink. The alcohol entered your system after the shooting. You were sober as a judge during the shooting. You do remember it more clearly now, don't you?

    Seriously, I think others are right that you'd get slaughtered in court for being "impaired" and shooting someone when it could be easily demonstrated that you were not in immediate danger.



    Of course IANAL. But I would have been a slick one.

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    Leo 229.

    I didn't discharge my weapon at all. I just drew it out and took defensive posture considering that i was in the basement when i ran outside and they were upstairs , they jumped out the way they came in. I had no verbal comm. with my guys upstairs henceforth i didn't know what i was putting myself in. They ( BG's) had already showed their motives and intentions when they made that loud TUD.

    Now i know it's against the law. Eg when you see a car parked with it's lights on and the key inside to actually drive off with it. It doesn't give you the right to steal it even though the keys are in it and it has been sitting there for hours.

    Same common law applies . Correct?

    The window is open and you assume no one is inside does not give you the right to enter.???????

    But getting back to the point...They showed motives when they broke the screen door and jumped in .....Was more than enough reason to get prepared for engagement.

    I wasn't upstairs . I didn't know what was going on. And that's why i didn't open fire.

    I needed both visual and audio aid in order to first evaluate and asses the situation, before engaging .





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    Regular Member Bulldog1967's Avatar
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    Just remember. Every bullet fired has a lawyer attached to it.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    It sounds to me, as little as it may be worth, that YOU....considering the circumstances (someone breaking in, hearing gunshots) did everything perfectly. Your friends on the other hand, the ones who opened fire, were perhaps a little too trigger happy and should have just let the kids run. I may not have even drawn the gun until I saw that they possibly had one. Four guys should be able to kick the crap out of a few punk kids. Plus, as someone previously mentioned....the a$$ beating would be a freebe.

  11. #11
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    richarcm

    You are right . They were a bit trigger happy considering that they just got back from deployment from our good old neighbours, Middle East. Plus the fact that thealcohol and their soberness had thoughts otherwise.



    I just merely posted this post on this forum to basically find out what would have had happened say if i were to engage myself during our course of action????



    But i do appreciate the feedback. Thank you.

  12. #12
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    Is it kidnapping or abduction if you hold em at gun point so you can beat there a$$?

    I'm sure you sobered up when you heard the noise and even more after hearing the shots!

    Your story said you were sipping. Never made mention you guys were trashed!???

  13. #13
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    Chukltr.

    The bottle was barely open . Officers on the scene responded amazingly fast considering that there were shots fired.

    But i do appreciate their level of proffesionalism and their attitude towards the whole investigation.

    I guess perks will be perks. You just have to learn to deal with them based on what one knows and also to follow the proper guidelines on as to what the ROE's are .

    I thought more about their parents quite honestly when they or if they had to find out that their son(s) were shot in an failed attempt burglary.

    Everyone is human. No human is the same. As long as there is greed and emotional detachment for whatever reason there will always be that ratio.

    BTW.

    The bottle of wine really didn't taste as well as i thought it would. I am just going to stick to good ole regular "trusty" beer.



    marine2000



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    marine2000 wrote:
    Leo 229.

    I didn't discharge my weapon at all. I just drew it out and took defensive posture considering that i was in the basement when i ran outside and they were upstairs , they jumped out the way they came in. I had no verbal comm. with my guys upstairs henceforth i didn't know what i was putting myself in. They ( BG's) had already showed their motives and intentions when they made that loud TUD.

    Now i know it's against the law. Eg when you see a car parked with it's lights on and the key inside to actually drive off with it. It doesn't give you the right to steal it even though the keys are in it and it has been sitting there for hours.

    Same common law applies . Correct?

    The window is open and you assume no one is inside does not give you the right to enter.???????

    But getting back to the point...They showed motives when they broke the screen door and jumped in .....Was more than enough reason to get prepared for engagement.

    I wasn't upstairs . I didn't know what was going on. And that's why i didn't open fire.

    I needed both visual and audio aid in order to first evaluate and asses the situation, before engaging .
    I was covering this question you asked......

    "My question .....????

    Are you allowed to open fire while drinking in someone's private property to whom that person has given you consent...??????"

    If you did... since you asked.... I would have asked you in return why. No matter if alcohol was involved.

  15. #15
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    where did this occur?
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    marine2000 wrote:
    richarcm

    You are right . They were a bit trigger happy considering that they just got back from deployment from our good old neighbours, Middle East. Plus the fact that thealcohol and their soberness had thoughts otherwise.



    I just merely posted this post on this forum to basically find out what would have had happened say if i were to engage myself during our course of action????



    But i do appreciate the feedback. Thank you.
    Edit: Delete.

  17. #17
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    marine2000 wrote:
    I didn't discharge my weapon
    Small detail.. but civillians should "get in the habit" of not using this word. A "weapon" is for an offensive tactic.. Police and military can legally use weapons. Get in the habit of calling it a firearm, pistol, gun, sidearm, etc. It is a very small detail that could make a difference in a legal battale as well.

    For years as a pilot we called airports with no contol tower "uncontrolled" and WE knew what it meant. The public did not and thay have pushed for "rules" to control us. Now we call them "non-towered" airports.

    It is also a hard habit to break as I called it the "W" word for years and years. Back in my Marine Corps days, folks even got in trouble for calling thier rifle a "gun".

    "This is my rifle (points to rifle), this is my GUN (grabs crotch).. This is for fighting.. this is for FUN"
    Carry On.

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  18. #18
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    Never shoot unless you have to.

    That is all.

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    W.E.G

    Thank you.



    marine2000

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    W.E.G. wrote:
    Never shoot unless you have to.

    That is all.
    Well.......That's a good guideline but sometimes the "HE NEEDED KILLING" rule, needs to br applied!

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    Well.......That's a good guideline but sometimes the "HE NEEDED KILLING" rule, needs to br applied!
    I've heard that IS a legal defense here in the south.

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    My wife references the old "and that your honor is why I killed him" joke a lot. She claims it'll hold up in court. lol


    Marine - I think you handled it very well and used good judgement. You prepared to defend yourself if needed, but didn't take action when you weren't directly threatened. Take that same situation and add one of the kids turns partially while running and aims a gun at you...I'd have said, don't miss when you pull the trigger.

  23. #23
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    DHCruiser.

    Thank you for that input.

    Just trying to stay positve and not encounter anything not worth doing.

    BTW.

    It's good to have people with open minds on this site.



    Marine2000



  24. #24
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    doug23838 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    Well.......That's a good guideline but sometimes the "HE NEEDED KILLING" rule, needs to br applied!
    I've heard that IS a legal defense here in the south.
    It originated in Texas, the HNK defense is very popular there, from what I hear
    James Reynolds

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  25. #25
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    I seriously doubt anybody is going to find a cite for this one. I can't imagine any rational person/attorney even considering this as a primary defense.

    IMO - it diminishes our image and hurts our goals to speak lightly of taking a life.
    I would continue until the threat was over but shall always consider myself the defender/protector not the judge.

    If you are ever forced into that position, make your phone call to your attorney and shut up. Hope it never happens to you.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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