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Thread: More guns are not the answer

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    Regular Member Repeater's Avatar
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    By Barbie Spitz, member of JMU Students for a Democratic Society

    It would be foolish to think that JMU students would silently consent to allow the carrying of concealed weapons on campus. I do not foresee such a policy change in the near future, but I will not wait until it is too late to make a statement. While I predict that the students here will not stand for any kind of policy change pushed by Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (SCCC), I do not fully trust the administration of JMU to listen to students on this issue.

    Two years ago, 81 percent of students voted to include a $9 fee in tuition to fund clean energy initiatives. The higher powers at JMU not only refused to create the “green fund,” but raised our fees by more than $300 anyway. This goes without mentioning the atrocious and inexplicable changes in our beloved campus hangout, Taylor Down Under, which few students seem to approve of.

    The answer to gun violence is not more guns. The victims of Columbine and Virginia Tech were not killed because they were unarmed. They were killed because a few troubled young men slipped through the cracks of society and were driven to violence. Allowing students on campus to carry firearms would not make such troubled individuals less violent.

    SCCC claims that guns belong in the hands of potential victims who have the right to defend themselves and that current gun laws serve the purpose of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people. But the fact is that even the current restrictions on obtaining a firearm are insufficient. Let us remember that Seung-Hui Cho obtained his gun legally, and the Columbine shooters’ shotguns were bought at a gun show.

    Even if people were given a greater opportunity to defend themselves with guns, it would not stop people from being killed. Think about it: If someone kills another person in defense of their own life, their attacker is dead. A life would be saved, but one would be lost, too. It is not our job to determine whose life is more valuable.

    This is not to disrespect the family members and friends of gun victims. My aunt was murdered with a handgun 10 years ago and, after years of wishing her killer dead, I have only recently learned to view him as another human being. I am only asking that we remember that those who use guns for violence are people, too, and their families suffer as well.

    I also know for a fact that even if my aunt were armed that fateful day, she would not have used a gun to defend herself.

    Allowing guns on campus will only breed more opportunities for violence. The answer is not defense, but acknowledgement of the root causes of gun violence. We need to provide more help for troubled teens, question the values and activities of our society that cause so many to turn to violence and make more room for those who might not fit into the conventional culture of today’s society.

    Defending yourself from guns by using a gun? Talk about a band-aid solution to a bullet wound.

    Barbie Spitz is a senior sociology major and africana studies minor. For more information, visit studentsforgunfreeschools.org.
    =============

    Concealed carry combats an unlikely but dangerous threat
    Daniel Dales, campus leader, Students for Concealed Carry on Campus The Virginia Tech and Northern Illinois shootings were two instances that received heavy media attention. While these events are relatively infrequent, widespread attention on the issue should not be overlooked. There are many other instances that have not received such attention. In fact, there have been seven campus shootings since the incident at Virginia Tech last April. Regardless of the number of shootings, any incident that causes students on a public campus to fear for their safety absolutely warrants widespread attention.

    SCCC advocates concealed carry on campus for personal protection by licensed adults over the age of 21. We have never stated that we do not intend to use our weapons, as the reason we carry them is in the extreme event that we would need to use them.

    We argue that incidents involving guns will not increase on campus, because permit-holders are trained to pull their firearms only in the event that the lives of them and their peers are in immediate danger. We affirm that the increase in firearms on campus will never be known unless a shooting were to occur. Concealed means exactly that: concealed. In a perfect world, we hope to never need to pull our weapons, but we welcome the security of knowing we have them if we need them.
    A recent editorial published in The Breeze stated “If concealed carry were allowed on JMU’s campus, any student, faculty or staff member might very well be within firing range at any given point.” This comment insinuates that students need to fear permit-holders.

    SCCC would like to ask the author of this editorial if they are scared to go to Wal-Mart because of all the permit-holders that carry their guns there daily? The writer may be surprised to know the number of permit-holders that carry in stores every day around them. There are plenty stories across the nation of permit-holders using their weapons for personal protection both in the home and in public.

    However, stories of permit-holders abusing their right to carry by using their weapons offensively are few and far between; surely not as frequent as opponents of concealed carry would like us to believe. Again, concealed means concealed; no one will ever know we are carrying a weapon unless the day comes that a shooter comes on campus and we need to pull our weapon.

    On that day, those in opposition may be happy we are there.

    Daniel Dales is a senior biology major and criminal justice minor. For more information, visit concealedcampus.org.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    1. Being shot in the head by one of their intended victims would not only have made Harris, Klebold and Cho LESS violent, it would have made them absolutely NON-violent, PERMANENTLY.

    2. Anyone who refuses to choose between the lives of Cho Seung Hui and his victims is not just stupid, he's EVIL. They are EAGER enablers of mass murderers. They are the sort of despicable cur which equates Hans Frank and Anne Frank.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    I find their group name, "Students for a Democratic Society", to be very fitting. I'm sure there are plenty of other rights they would love to vote away. The tyranny of the majority...

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    Would armed students prevented the shootings at VT? Maybe, maybe not.

    But one thing is for certain, a lot less innocent people would be dead.


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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Would armed students prevented the shootings at VT? Maybe, maybe not.

    But one thing is for certain, a lot less innocent people would be dead.
    But she said that would be just as bad because then Cho would be dead.

    I don't just say this to everybody, but I wish she'd fix herself a big Prestone martini. She's every bit as evil as Cho and without the excuse of madness. Just reading what she wrote makes my skin crawl. It's every bit as loathesome as some NAMBLA mutant talking about howtoddlers "seduce" adults.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Deanimator wrote:
    But she said that would be just as bad because then Cho would be dead.

    I don't just say this to everybody, but I wish she'd fix herself a big Prestone martini. She's every bit as evil as Cho and without the excuse of madness. Just reading what she wrote makes my skin crawl. It's every bit as loathesome as some NAMBLA mutant talking about howtoddlers "seduce" adults.
    I love this one:

    I also know for a fact that even if my aunt were armed that fateful day, she would not have used a gun to defend herself.
    Sorry, but your Aunt would be an idiot. She'd rather die than fight for her own life. Sorry, that is MORONIC! Self preservation is one of our most basic instincts and one I am happy to abide by!

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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    More guns are not the answer
    Then they're probably asking the wrong questions.

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    hsmith wrote:
    Deanimator wrote:
    But she said that would be just as bad because then Cho would be dead.

    I don't just say this to everybody, but I wish she'd fix herself a big Prestone martini. She's every bit as evil as Cho and without the excuse of madness. Just reading what she wrote makes my skin crawl. It's every bit as loathesome as some NAMBLA mutant talking about howtoddlers "seduce" adults.
    I love this one:

    I also know for a fact that even if my aunt were armed that fateful day, she would not have used a gun to defend herself.
    Sorry, but your Aunt would be an idiot. She'd rather die than fight for her own life. Sorry, that is MORONIC! Self preservation is one of our most basic instincts and one I am happy to abide by!
    The bottom line is that she thinks her aunt had less urge for self-preservation than the centipedes I find on my bathroom wall. As I said, I find the author of that dollop ofevil incalculably vile.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    mpg9999 wrote:
    I find their group name, "Students for a Democratic Society", to be very fitting. I'm sure there are plenty of other rights they would love to vote away. The tyranny of the majority...
    Is it just a coincidence or is this some sort of "rebirth" of the 60's SDS?

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Her name is Barbie..........

    That's all I needed to read. I knew it was all downhill from there.
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Repeater wrote:
    By Barbie Spitz, member of JMU Students for a Democratic Society

    Defending yourself from guns by using a gun? Talk about a band-aid solution to a bullet wound.

    Barbie Spitz is a senior sociology major and africana studies minor. For more information, visit studentsforgunfreeschools.org
    Well, Barbie, feel free to defend yourself from an armed attacker with your Blackberry.

    Mr. Spock would say "Any non-forceful response to a forceful attack would be illogical, Jim". I suspect from Barbie's curriculum, she probably can't think logically.

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    mpg9999 wrote:
    I find their group name, "Students for a Democratic Society", to be very fitting. I'm sure there are plenty of other rights they would love to vote away. The tyranny of the majority...
    Is it just a coincidence or is this some sort of "rebirth" of the 60's SDS?
    I wasn't aware of the 1960's SDS, nor of this new one. I just looked it up on wikipedia. "Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) is a United States student organization. It takes its name and inspiration from the original SDS of the 1960s, the largest radical student organization in US history, but the "reformed" SDS is a completely new youth- and student-led organization with over 110 chapters world wide."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_a_Democratic_Society_(2006_organizati on)

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    Repeater wrote:
    Barbie Spitz is a senior sociology major and africana studies minor......

    I think her by-line pretty much speaks for itself. I'm sure her masters are very proud of their little puppet.

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    ProShooter wrote:
    Her name is Barbie..........

    That's all I needed to read. I knew it was all downhill from there.
    Hey!!

    My wife's name is Barbara. I and most of her good friends call her Barbie. And I can assure you she is nothing like the nutcase who penned this article.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    As a JMU alum I'd love to be able to help these students keep their right to defend themselves. Is there anything that can be done?

    Killing the crazy guy isn't typically a trade off of one life for one life. Killing Cho at VT could have saved over 30 lives. I'd say that is a GREAT tradeoff. Killing one person (who committed suicide anyways) to save 30 people seems to only make too much sense.

    Who's to say who's life is more valuable? How about me? I tend to think that my life is pretty valuable. If I were to go to school again I'd probably conceal regardless of the policy. I'd just keep it REALLY REALLY quiet. If I had to use it to save my life or someone else's and I was kicked out as a result I would cooperatively say PEACE.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    ProShooter wrote:
    Her name is Barbie..........

    That's all I needed to read. I knew it was all downhill from there.
    Hey!!

    My wife's name is Barbara. I and most of her good friends call her Barbie. And I can assure you she is nothing like the nutcase who penned this article.
    And so we hear from KEN ! I'm sure you've heard that before but I just couldn't help myself - sorry.

    Yata hey

    Corrected typo - darn keyboard.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I'm not even going to get started on this. I am a JMU alum, and I know that hands down, the YDS (young democratic socialists) represent an insanely small minority of JMU students. Take that young lady's perspective as one in a hundred, if not one in a thousand. I remember watching people of that caliber burn the American flag in front of the dining facility my junior year, in protest of Bush and sweatshops and some other cause. Apparently when you combine three progressive/hippy causes, it gives you sufficient reason to burn our nation's flag. Who woulda thunk it? But I digress... There are far more apathetic students in this matter, and that is what matters. If anything, our efforts should be focused at helping people make an informed choice and to know all the facts about this issue of concealed carry on campus. Lambast her if you want, but realize that wasting energy on her is like wasting energy on crushing an anthill with your heel. Not worth your time. Trust me, people like that are more of a spectacle on campus. I don't get the impression that their editorials, speeches, or protests really effect anyone's opinion on this matter. What will affect students is rational discussion and dissemination of the facts.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SoldierMedic wrote:
    I'm not even going to get started on this. I am a JMU alum, and I know that hands down, the YDS (young democratic socialists) represent an insanely small minority of JMU students. Take that young lady's perspective as one in a hundred, if not one in a thousand. I remember watching people of that caliber burn the American flag in front of the dining facility my junior year, in protest of Bush and sweatshops and some other cause. Apparently when you combine three progressive/hippy causes, it gives you sufficient reason to burn our nation's flag. Who woulda thunk it? But I digress... There are far more apathetic students in this matter, and that is what matters. If anything, our efforts should be focused at helping people make an informed choice and to know all the facts about this issue of concealed carry on campus. Lambast her if you want, but realize that wasting energy on her is like wasting energy on crushing an anthill with your heel. Not worth your time. Trust me, people like that are more of a spectacle on campus. I don't get the impression that their editorials, speeches, or protests really effect anyone's opinion on this matter. What will affect students is rational discussion and dissemination of the facts.
    Extremely well said and from a personal perspective too. I agree that sometimes we spend too much time and effort on the inconsequential things. Our energies can be better utilized in more productive ways.

    Thank you for your service to our country and contributions to OCDO.

    Try a meet-up at a local OC dinner and see just how down to earth we are.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    SoldierMedic wrote:
    I'm not even going to get started on this. I am a JMU alum, and I know that hands down, the YDS (young democratic socialists) represent an insanely small minority of JMU students. Take that young lady's perspective as one in a hundred, if not one in a thousand. I remember watching people of that caliber burn the American flag in front of the dining facility my junior year, in protest of Bush and sweatshops and some other cause. Apparently when you combine three progressive/hippy causes, it gives you sufficient reason to burn our nation's flag. Who woulda thunk it? But I digress... There are far more apathetic students in this matter, and that is what matters. If anything, our efforts should be focused at helping people make an informed choice and to know all the facts about this issue of concealed carry on campus. Lambast her if you want, but realize that wasting energy on her is like wasting energy on crushing an anthill with your heel. Not worth your time. Trust me, people like that are more of a spectacle on campus. I don't get the impression that their editorials, speeches, or protests really effect anyone's opinion on this matter. What will affect students is rational discussion and dissemination of the facts.
    JMU is a fairly moderate, non-political school. At least it was when I went. There was a hippie/punk minority there however the majority were just your basic partying college brat. But times have changed in the past decade and JMU does consist of many northerners and NOVA kids who traditionally are more liberal than those from the rest of VA.......sigh.....so who knows.

    Me and my college buddy OCers might need to schedule a trip up there sooner than we had previously discussed.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    richarcm wrote:
    snip........Me and my college buddy OCers might need to schedule a trip up there sooner than we had previously discussed.
    Not likely that you'll be mistaken for a typical college student is there?

    However, you inadvertantly may have touched on a very interesting thought. The primary problem is that a registered student carrying a handgun OC or CC, if discovered, can be expelled but what if he or she were not on their own campus?

    Now that is indeed very, very interesting. Student activists could "swap campuses" for a day or even a couple of hours on a week-end. Wow that should get somebody's attention, maybe even notify the press ahead of time.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    would love to come to an OC dinner. I'll have to take a rain check for now though, as I have to return to Iraq shortly. How about 2009, sound good? I'll be in the Virginia Beach or Richmond area come May 2009, God willing.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    SoldierMedic wrote:
    would love to come to an OC dinner. I'll have to take a rain check for now though, as I have to return to Iraq shortly. How about 2009, sound good? I'll be in the Virginia Beach or Richmond area come May 2009, God willing.
    By all means do so. And while you are in the box send us an occasional posting.

    We have some people on the ground there now with Open Carry and VCDL stickers/decals on their rolling stock. I'm sure that there are those that would gladly donate some - I would if you will give me your mailing address when you get settled in.

    Good luck - be safe and Vios con Dios

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  23. #23
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    SoldierMedic wrote:
    would love to come to an OC dinner. I'll have to take a rain check for now though, as I have to return to Iraq shortly. How about 2009, sound good? I'll be in the Virginia Beach or Richmond area come May 2009, God willing.
    *

    By all means do so.* And while you are in the box send us an occasional posting.*

    We have some people on the ground there now with Open Carry and VCDL stickers/decals on their rolling stock.* I'm sure that there are those that would gladly donate some - I would if you will give me your mailing address when you get settled in.

    Good luck - be safe and Vios con Dios

    *** ** ** Yata hey
    I will attempt to stay informed as to OC/2A issues while I'm over there. It's the end of our tour, so it won't be long before I'll be right back. I got stuck with R and R near the end due to battalion's negligence. Oh well. Anyhow, thanks for the offer of a sticker, wish we could put them on our trucks but our unit is very picky about stuff like that. It's the thought that counts though I'll notify all when I return. I'm sure a forum member or two has something planned for the holiday time frame, and if not, here's my bid to get the ball rolling on a December OC dinner. God bless, and please keep the crazies off of my firearms while i'm away protecting their freedoms

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    by the way, if anyone has facebook and happens to be a JMU alum in the JMU network, you can check up on the author of the article which caused this thread.... interesting photos in her photo albums to say the least. Obviously I'm not going to incite anything by posting them, but check them out for yourself if able.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    richarcm wrote:
    snip........Me and my college buddy OCers might need to schedule a trip up there sooner than we had previously discussed.
    Not likely that you'll be mistaken for a typical college student is there?

    However, you inadvertantly may have touched on a very interesting thought. The primary problem is that a registered student carrying a handgun OC or CC, if discovered, can be expelled but what if he or she were not on their own campus?

    Now that is indeed very, very interesting. Student activists could "swap campuses" for a day or even a couple of hours on a week-end. Wow that should get somebody's attention, maybe even notify the press ahead of time.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Yata hey
    Sounds like an ideaer. Unfortunatley I would no longer pass as a student. Not that it wouldn't be fun. I already do it at VA Tech every chance I get.

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