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Thread: What is considered "Partially Covered" in Montana?

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    I saw a post about being "partially covered" is concealed in MT. I have a friend who is going to MT for a few weeks. Is an inside the waistband holster considered concealed if there is no garment or flap covering the grip?

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    Here it is straight from the MCA, and based on this if he is going to carry inside city limits, get a IWB holster.

    http://data.opi.state.mt.us/bills/mca_toc/45_8_3.htm

    45-8-315. Definition. "Concealed weapon" means any weapon mentioned in 45-8-316 through 45-8-318 and 45-8-321 through 45-8-328 that is wholly or partially covered by the clothing or wearing apparel of the person carrying or bearing the weapon, except that for purposes of 45-8-321 through 45-8-328, concealed weapon means a handgun or a knife with a blade 4 or more inches in length that is wholly or partially covered by the clothing or wearing apparel of the person carrying or bearing the weapon.

    Exceptions:

    45-8-317. Exceptions. (1) Section 45-8-316 does not apply to:
    (a) any peace officer of the state of Montana or of another state who has the power to make arrests;
    (b) any officer of the United States government authorized to carry a concealed weapon;
    (c) a person in actual service as a member of the national guard;
    (d) a person summoned to the aid of any of the persons named in subsections (1)(a) through (1)(c);
    (e) a civil officer or the officer's deputy engaged in the discharge of official business;
    (f) a probation and parole officer authorized to carry a firearm under 46-23-1002;
    (g) a person issued a permit under 45-8-321 or a person with a permit recognized under 45-8-329;
    (h) an agent of the department of justice or a criminal investigator in a county attorney's office;
    (i) a person who is outside the official boundaries of a city or town or the confines of a logging, lumbering, mining, or railroad camp or who is lawfully engaged in hunting, fishing, trapping, camping, hiking, backpacking, farming, ranching, or other outdoor activity in which weapons are often carried for recreation or protection; or
    (j) the carrying of arms on one's own premises or at one's home or place of business.
    (2) With regard to a person issued a permit under 45-8-321, the provisions of 45-8-328 do not apply to this section.

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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Yes. I personaly carry in this manner. IWB Holster, all you can see is the grip and cocked and locked hammer. I feel its the most comfortable.

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Yes, but isn't the part of the holster that is in fact inside the waistband of the pants (clothing) considered partially covered? I have heard the police use that in some states to harass OCer's. I know it's splitting hairs, but just want to make sure IWB carry is considered OC by Montana LEO's.

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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Yes (again) you need a permit to carry in this fashion! The law is quite clear.

    Do not carry IWB without permit!

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    Yep, you will need a permit to carry IWB while in city limits. Out and away from city limits you can carry concealed without a permit.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Why don't y'all just get a real gunbelt (not a pants belt) 'n use it? No questions about concealment at all. Very simple solution.

    'Does beg the question of a flapped holster tho... being considered 'clothing' somehow. Some holsters enclose the weapon completely (likethe Makarov, P-38, Luger etc.) or partially such as the M1902 type US military holsters for the 1911's.

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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Ok no IWB without CCW permit, But Open carry is OK everywhere except schools, federally prohibited, state buildings? Can you OC (belt holster)into restaurants, city parks/public gatherings, banks? Or do the same restrictions apply as for ccw?

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    vermonter wrote:
    Can you OC (belt holster)into restaurants, city parks/public gatherings, banks?
    Yes, with a couple of caveats. This is mostly addressed in one of the subsections linked above: 45-8-328
    • Restaurants : OK
      While it is legal to open carry in restaurants and bars, they are private property. As such, if the proprietor tells you not to carry (or just tells you to get out), you can be cited for trespassing if you do not comply.
      --As a side note, if the handgun is in a case it isn't concealed. Even one of those day planner-ish hideout gun cases is not considered 'concealed' for the purposes of Montana law--unless you put it in your pocket. As long as it is on the table or chair next to you it isn't "concealed", just cased.
      --As a side side note, concealed carry is only prohibited in restaurants that also serve alcohol. If it is something like a fast food joint or a Mom & Pop that only sells food, you can carry concealed. You only have to uncover if they sell alcohol for consumption on the premises--that means that it is OK to carry concealed in a convenience store that sells hot dogs and burritos, even though the also sell beer and wine, because they don't sell it for consumption right in the store.
    • City parks/public gatherings : OK
      Montana state law doesn't prohibit carry (open or concealed) in parks and public events, and Montana has a state preemption clause. However, it includes an exception that explicitly allows local governments to impose their own prohibitions on parks and public gatherings under their jurisdiction.
    • Banks : OK, sorta
      Open carry is technically legal, but I have yet to see a bank that isn't posted with a weapons prohibited sign of some sort. As such, the same private property restrictions as bars applies to banks. And bankers are likely to be a lot more paranoid than restaurateurs. While local ranchers on a first name basis with their tellers in their local small bank can get away with forgetting to leave their holster/gun in the truck, nobody else should try it unless they don't have anything better to do the whole rest of the day than spend it in the company of grumpy guys with badges.
      --Another side note: Concealed carry is only prohibited inside Banks (and credit unions, etc), and is only prohibited during normal business hours. If you are in a bank after hours for some other reason, such as a janitor or painter or meeting with your loan officer, you can carry concealed. Also you can use the ATM while carrying concealed in most banks because it is usually either outside or in a blocked off unstaffed alcove.




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    Regular Member vermonter's Avatar
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    Someone needs to write their legislator to get these restrictions removed. Here in Vermont you don't need a permit to CCW or OC. You cannot carry on school property, state buildings and the usual federal restrictions - COMMON SENSE. That is IT! They need to change the law in MT so that it is illegal to be intoxicated while carrying, pre-empt the right of cities to regulate parks and gatherings, and remove the bank/train restriction. Sounds like draconian laws that are a throwback to the gunslinger days when they were worried about drunken shootouts at bars, and train/bank robberies. I don't think they have to worry about people who have gone through the trouble of being licensed. Write your legislators!!!!

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    vermonter wrote:
    Someone needs to write their legislator to get these restrictions removed. Here in Vermont you don't need a permit to CCW or OC. You cannot carry on school property, state buildings and the usual federal restrictions - COMMON SENSE. That is IT! They need to change the law in MT so that it is illegal to be intoxicated while carrying, pre-empt the right of cities to regulate parks and gatherings, and remove the bank/train restriction. Sounds like draconian laws that are a throwback to the gunslinger days when they were worried about drunken shootouts at bars, and train/bank robberies. I don't think they have to worry about people who have gone through the trouble of being licensed. Write your legislators!!!!
    There are MANY restaurants in Montana (which serve alcohol) that if the CCW prohibition were lifted, you world not need to CWL to carry. So while they would NOT have to worry about people who have gone through the trouble of being licensed, they would have to worry about everyone else. You don't need a CWL to CCW in 99% of the State of Montana.

    But I hear what you're saying, and I have written many legislators, and all they seem to be interested in is allowing any yahoo to CCW in places like WallyWorld, Home Depot,McDonalds, and the Rodeo...without a Background Check, and without showing proof of any weapons training or previous handling experience.
    StaySafe,
    MG
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    llanok wrote:
    vermonter wrote:
    Can you OC (belt holster)into restaurants, city parks/public gatherings, banks?
    Yes, with a couple of caveats. This is mostly addressed in one of the subsections linked above: 45-8-328
    • Restaurants : OK
      While it is legal to open carry in restaurants and bars, they are private property. As such, if the proprietor tells you not to carry (or just tells you to get out), you can be cited for trespassing if you do not comply.
      --As a side note, if the handgun is in a case it isn't concealed. Even one of those day planner-ish hideout gun cases is not considered 'concealed' for the purposes of Montana law--unless you put it in your pocket. As long as it is on the table or chair next to you it isn't "concealed", just cased.
      --As a side side note, concealed carry is only prohibited in restaurants that also serve alcohol. If it is something like a fast food joint or a Mom & Pop that only sells food, you can carry concealed. You only have to uncover if they sell alcohol for consumption on the premises--that means that it is OK to carry concealed in a convenience store that sells hot dogs and burritos, even though the also sell beer and wine, because they don't sell it for consumption right in the store.
    • City parks/public gatherings : OK
      Montana state law doesn't prohibit carry (open or concealed) in parks and public events, and Montana has a state preemption clause. However, it includes an exception that explicitly allows local governments to impose their own prohibitions on parks and public gatherings under their jurisdiction.
    • Banks : OK, sorta
      Open carry is technically legal, but I have yet to see a bank that isn't posted with a weapons prohibited sign of some sort. As such, the same private property restrictions as bars applies to banks. And bankers are likely to be a lot more paranoid than restaurateurs. While local ranchers on a first name basis with their tellers in their local small bank can get away with forgetting to leave their holster/gun in the truck, nobody else should try it unless they don't have anything better to do the whole rest of the day than spend it in the company of grumpy guys with badges.
      --Another side note: Concealed carry is only prohibited inside Banks (and credit unions, etc), and is only prohibited during normal business hours. If you are in a bank after hours for some other reason, such as a janitor or painter or meeting with your loan officer, you can carry concealed. Also you can use the ATM while carrying concealed in most banks because it is usually either outside or in a blocked off unstaffed alcove.


    With respect to all involved, where were you when JB and I were trying to explain this exact fact to MountainGator? Funny how some can say something and not be questioned but when others do, it's not believed!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Well I see we're a happy bunch here......

    Personally I think Montana is improving things, and if I want to walk into a bank OC I can. If I want to walk on School property I can nomatter if I'm OC or CC. If my wife and I are out and I want to have a drink, she can carry in her purse because it is not concealed under Montana law, and there fore legally carried by her. Should I need it, I can get it... but I don't drink so there is no problem there.

    Vermonter - Montana is currently working to eliminate conceal carry permits all together. I personally still like having one for when I purchase a firearm and still have to fill out the federal form 4473 which then allows me to pay and walk, and no NICS check.

    Not all states are going to adopt - Vermont Style Carry Remember your visiting here, just be nice. Our gun laws are very easy to live and operate around.

    I'm hoping that soon all states will be like Alaska and Vermont.

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Well said JB!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    JBin said: " Montana is currently working to eliminate conceal carry permits all together"

    Not Exactly, they are trying to remove theNeedfor a permit to carry Concealed in side City limits.

    Eliminating Montana CCP all together would be a bad Idea. If that happened, a Montanan would not be able to CC in other states that once had Reciprocity.

    If this law HB228 Passes ( Hopefully) Those with a Permit will only need it when they leave the state. Or use itfor NICS when Purchasing Firearms. Montanans without a Permit will have to OC when they leave the state ( as long as the that state allows)

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    MT GUNNY wrote:
    JBin said: " Montana is currently working to eliminate conceal carry permits all together"

    Not Exactly, they are trying to remove theNeedfor a permit to carry Concealed in side City limits.

    Eliminating Montana CCP all together would be a bad Idea. If that happened, a Montanan would not be able to CC in other states that once had Reciprocity.

    If this law HB228 Passes ( Hopefully) Those with a Permit will only need it when they leave the state. Or use itfor NICS when Purchasing Firearms. Montanans without a Permit will have to OC when they leave the state ( as long as the that state allows)
    This part I know about the new current HB228 that a permit will no longer be required should it pass. But if you want to still maintain a conceal carry permit one can do that to carry outside the state, and shorten your wait on firearms purchases.

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    40s&wfan wrote:
    With respect to all involved, where were you when JB and I were trying to explain this exact fact to MountainGator? Funny how some can say something and not be questioned but when others do, it's not believed!!
    Hey amp fan, not in Vermonter's defense, but look at the date of his last post (Oct 08) and then recall the time of our 3-way discussion (couple weeks ago). But just to set the reccord straight, in the 3-way (with you, me & JB) I was NOT discussing OC, I was asking only in respect to CCW.

    but to MT Gunny. I am opposed to a change in MCA that would allow ANYONE... Gangbangers, Wife-beaters, even Well-intentioned Citizens who have never-Ever-EVER fired any hand gun, to carry concealed in places like the Home Depot, Wally World, a theater, every Mall inthe state, etc. ... Especially when I - a holder of a MT CWP - have to put my gun into my wife's purse when we go into Red Lobster for lunch.

    jmho
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    MG
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    JBinMontana wrote:
    ... If my wife and I are out and I want to have a drink, she can carry in her purse because it is not concealed under Montana law, and there fore legally carried by her. Should I need it, I can get it... but I don't drink so there is no problem there.
    ....
    HEYJB.... man, you must have some really special gal there, 'cause if I ever put my gun in my wife's purse, it would probably only take her/me 10 minutes to find it (if it was needed)


    StaySafe,
    MG
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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Hi y'all! While I'm politically favorable to 'Constitutional Carry'... (Rights don't require permission) for CC... As somebody mentioned... BG's CC as a matter of course no matter what. So the common sense side of me sez CC should require permit. 'Just solves a lotta 'doubt' to separate the GG's from the BG's. Also... allows the carrier to travel beyond the state with the gun... and makes purchases easier.

    I have an AZ CWP and altho I rarely carry CC... there's times I must. (Durin' the monsoons or when it's colder than a short jacket will work.) There's nothing preventing BG's from OC... 'cept they don't. Not with holsters anyway. The current hoodle fashion don't include belts it seems.

    Ennyhoo... I kind'a favor permit for CC... with the usual firearms course requirement... fingerprints 'n all that.

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    MountainGator wrote:
    but to MT Gunny. I am opposed to a change in MCA that would allow ANYONE... Gangbangers, Wife-beaters, even Well-intentioned Citizens who have never-Ever-EVER fired any hand gun, to carry concealed in places like the Home Depot, Wally World, a theater, every Mall inthe state, etc. ... Especially when I - a holder of a MT CWP - have to put my gun into my wife's purse when we go into Red Lobster for lunch.

    jmho
    Then open carry in Red Lobster! As several of us have already stated, it is legal to OC in these places but you must follow their policy. If they ask you to remove it or to leave, take your business elsewhere!

    Why don't we have a Red Lobster here?
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    40s&wfan wrote:
    Why don't we have a Red Lobster here?
    Here ya go



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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    Ok, thanks for reminding me about just how gross sea food looks!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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    Regular Member MT GUNNY's Avatar
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    Quote From MountainGator:
    but to MT Gunny. I am opposed to a change in MCA that would allow ANYONE... Gangbangers, Wife-beaters, even Well-intentioned Citizens who have never-Ever-EVER fired any hand gun, to carry concealed in places like the Home Depot, Wally World, a theater, every Mall inthe state, etc. ... Especially when I - a holder of a MT CWP - have to put my gun into my wife's purse when we go into Red Lobster for lunch.

    jmho


    Thats a good thing that your opposed to Gang bangers, Wife beaters and Such to carry Openly or Concealed. So am I! There is a Law here in MT

    45-8-313. Unlawful possession of firearm by convicted person. (1) A person commits the offense of unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted person if the person purposely or knowingly purchases or possesses a firearm after the person has been convicted of:
    (a) a felony for which the person received an additional sentence under 46-18-221; or
    (b) an offense under the law of another state or of the United States that is equivalent to an offense that when committed in Montana is subject to an additional sentence under 46-18-221.
    (2) A person convicted of unlawful possession of a firearm by a convicted person shall be imprisoned in a state prison for not less than 2 years or more than 10 years.
    (3) A person who has been issued a permit under 45-8-314 may not be convicted of a violation of this section.

    I could Post more of MCA that would back this up but there is a limit to the amont of posted Words.


    This law is not in Question Here, We are Talking about CCW laws. Lets say for instance this law passes, HB228, A person NOT allowed by law to own a Firearm CANNOT Carry Openly or Concealed. If you can Legally own you may then CC or OCthroughout MT.



    So HB 228 is not a Change in MCA that would allow Gang bangers or Wife beaters to CC or OC........... I shure Hope you are not Writing our Legislatures saying you Oppose any change toCC laws that are on the Books Cuz you don't understand the Text of HB228?


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    40s&wfan wrote:
    Ok, thanks for reminding me about just how gross sea food looks!!
    Ah but its so good for you... I hate the cold, so I could really live where the weather is warmer .... much warmer and the fishing is good all the time.

    Can you say, Hawaii

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    Regular Member 40s-and-wfan's Avatar
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    I'd prefer Arizona, New Mexico or Nevada. I'm not big into watersports and I don't fish much!! I fly-fish every now and then but that's it!!
    In a crisis you don't rise to the occasion, but rather default to your level of training.

    Forgiveness is between them and God. It's my job to arrange the meeting.
    -John W. Creasy (Man on Fire)

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