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Thread: Audit: ATF lost 76 weapons, hundreds of laptops

  1. #1
    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Here is a good counter for the gun grabbers when the say that guns should only be in the hands of thetrained authorities.



    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080917/...e/lost_weapons

    WASHINGTON - The ATF lost 76 weapons and hundreds of laptops over five years, the Justice Department reported Wednesday, blaming carelessness and sloppy record-keeping.

    Thirty-five of the missing handguns, rifles, Tasers and other weapons were stolen, as were 50 laptops, the internal audit found. Two of the stolen weapons were used in crimes.

    The audit by Justice Department Inspector General Glenn A. Fine found "inadequate" oversight of weapons and laptops resulted in "significant rates of losses" at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

    "It is especially troubling that that ATF's rate of loss for weapons was nearly double that of the FBI and DEA, and that ATF did not even know whether most of its lost, stolen, or missing laptop computers contained sensitive or classified information," he added.

    In a Sept. 10 letter responding to the audit, ATF acting Director Michael J. Sullivan said his agency "agrees or partially agrees with most of the recommendations."

    "We are revising our procedures of reporting losses of weapons or laptops," Sullivan said.

    The audit looked at ATF's inventory of weapons, laptops, ammunition and explosives between Oct. 1, 2002 and Aug. 31, 2007.

    It found that ATF lost three times more weapons each month than it had in a similar 2002 audit by the Treasury Department, which used to oversee the agency. It also lost 50 times as many laptops as reported in the earlier audit.

    Of the 76 weapons, 35 were reported stolen, 19 lost and 12 missing from inventories, investigators found. Of the 418 missing laptops, 50 were stolen, 8 lost and 274 could not be found during inventory. Another 86 laptops were unaccounted for because ATF had either destroyed or lost documents showing where they were, the audit concluded.

    Two weapons reported stolen were used to commit crimes. In one instance, a gun was stolen from an ATF car parked outside the agent's home and later used to shoot through the window of another residence, the audit found. In the other, a stolen ATF gun was taken from a burglary suspect.

    Additionally, ATF employees did not report 13 of the 76 lost weapons, or 365 of the 418 missing laptops, to internal affairs as required. ATF officials also did not report much of the lost equipment to the Justice Department.

    Investigators could not conclude what was on 398 of 418 missing laptops — except that few were encrypted. That means any sensitive material on the laptops could have been exposed.

    Moreover, "we found that ATF did not regularly attempt to determine whether the lost, stolen or missing laptop computers contained sensitive or classified information," the audit said.

    But few — only 18 of 7,500 — ATF laptops were authorized to hold classified information.

    Compared to weapons loss rates for the FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration, the ATF misplaced almost twice as many guns. The audit found that the ATF lost .52 weapons per 1,000 employees, compared to .29 at the FBI and .28 at the DEA.

    Fine's investigators concluded there were proper controls and oversight of explosives in ATF's possession, and good security for ammunition. However, nine of 20 ATF field offices surveyed did not have proper accounting methods for ammunition.

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    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal

    -ljp

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    And this is the same organization that shuts down gun dealers for minor clerical errors!
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    Regular Member Huck's Avatar
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    And this is the same organization that shuts down gun dealers for minor clerical errors!
    "You can teach 'em, but you cant learn 'em."

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    "do as we say, not as we do"

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    ban the atf

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    Those weapons aren't lost.

    Just like the Hurricane Katrina Gun confiscation,

    THOSE WEAPONS ARE IN SOME COPS PERSONAL GUN SAFE !!!



    Man I better stay away from this topic, this kind ofshitburns me up !





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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Dustin wrote:
    Those weapons aren't lost.

    Just like the Hurricane Katrina Gun confiscation,

    THOSE WEAPONS ARE IN SOME COPS PERSONAL GUN SAFE !!!



    Man I better stay away from this topic, this kind of@#$%burns me up !



    There is a lot of truth to that.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    Legba wrote:
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal

    -ljp
    Apparently only themselves...and not too well by the sounds of it!

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    This is the same agency that wants us to trust them with our personal information, to keep records of everything we buy and to enforce the standard? How about just doing away with the ATF completely? Save a lot of cash

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    TipsyMcStagger wrote:
    ban the atf
    How about hanging them instead?




    Errr... I'm talking about the alcohol, tobacco, and firearms... those items look much better displayed on the wall, of course.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    1) I wonder if there were any select fire, short barreled rifles or shotguns or silencers amongst those weapons that were stolen, and especially amongst the stolen and not reported weapons. This will look very bad for the BATFE if any class III were lost.

    2) If anybody had any doubt about providing SSNs on the federal permission slip when buying firearms, the loss and non reporting of encrypted laptops should convince you. Next time you buy from a dealer do not fill in the SSN line. It is optional.

    3) There may be sensitive information (SSN and other stuff) about U.S. citizens on those stolen laptops. When the U.S. Navy, The Veterans Department and Bank of America accidentally disclosed my SSN they all had to inform me. (The VA disclosure was also due to a missing laptop) I wonder if the BATFE will be required to inform citizens that they were in a database that was compromised. Significance here is that there isn't supposed to be a list (other than class III).

    4) For the 13 not reported losses, I hope that there are at least 13 former BATFE employees with pending felony charges.

    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Yep my sentiments "Who guards the guard?"

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    Campaign Veteran deepdiver's Avatar
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    The scary part is that reports along these lines come out about the BATF year after year after year. This is not some astounding new information. They have been losing guns and computers at higher rate than other agencies for at least 20 years.

    Not only is it one of the most hated of US agencies, it is certainly without a doubt, consistently and blatantly the most hypocritical.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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    Legba wrote:
    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? - Juvenal

    -ljp
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quis_cu...os_custodes%3F

    The question is put to Socrates, "Who will guard the guardians?" or, "Who will protect us against the protectors?" Plato's answer to this is that they will guard themselves against themselves. We must tell the guardians a "noble lie." The noble lie will inform them that they are better than those they serve and it is therefore their responsibility to guard and protect those lesser than themselves.
    I
    n politics a noble lie is a myth or untruth, often, but not invariably, of a religious nature, knowingly told by an elite to maintain social harmony, particularly the social position of that elite. The noble lie is a concept originated by Plato as described in The Republic. However, the concept has far greater scope and has been used by many commentators to talk about much more modern issues in politics. A noble lie, although it may benefit all parties, is different from a white lie since a white lie does not cause discord if uncovered whereas noble lies are usually of a nature such that they would do so

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    As for providing personal information on gun forms (SS#), that information is relayed to NICS which is administered by the FBI (not ATF specifically). Also, for approved transactions, the personal identifying information in the record is purged within 24 hours of approval. This is at least one instance where this information is not kept in a manner that it represents a potential personal security problem. ATF would have to pull your info off 4473 forms, of which there are millions. They don't really concern themselves with approved buyers in any case, apart from specific criminal investigations.

    If you're denied for a purchase, however, then they can and do regularly ask for all identifying information on the would-be purchaser, and you may well have to answer to the Man at that time. Identity theft will be the least of your problems in that case.

    I'm not defending the agency for what would certainly be inexcusable incompetence if I did anything of the sort as an FFL, I just wanted to reassure gun buyers that the NICS check isn't as sinister as all that (at least as it's implemented now).

    -ljp


  17. #17
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    There are now dealers that have electronic 4473s. Once they got it in 0s and 1s it is no longer private. It will eventually be compromised.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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