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Thread: Had my LTCF seized at a Giant Eagle

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    To cut to the chase I went to a Giant Eagle today on Centre Ave. (for those of you who know where that is) and as I am walking in the store with my cart a Pittsburgh LEO calls me over and tells me to cover up my firearm. In order to get my shopping going along I acquiesced and covered it...small shirt so it didn't work too well but whatever. Then the security guard next to him said that my Permit REQUIRED me to carry concealed. To that I said that my permit didn't say CONCEALED anywhere on it. Foolishly I produced my permit to show him it indeed did not say concealed anywhere. The LEO...Sgt. Hlavik took my permit and starting writing down my information. It just hit me that I forfeiting some 4th Amendment rights in trying to prove the point.

    That sort of bothers me but i figured it was a lesson learned. He then asked for my phone number. Since he copied information for no reason and was keeping me for no reason I wasn't about to forfeit up more of my 4th amendment rights and give him a phone number without at least him telling me why. So I simply and politely asked him "why do you need my phone number?"

    At this point he becomes more aggressive towards me and tells me if i continue to give him lip that he will take my permit to the sherrifs department tomorrow and have it revoked. I told him that all I asked was why he needed my phone number and that he had no right to take my permit since I didn't do anything illegal.

    At that point he pretty much loses it and kicks me out of Giant Eagle. I ask to speak to the manager or someone who works at giant eagle and he tells me that he a City police officer and that I must leave and am no longer welcome to return. I asked for his business card, he said no. I asked him for his name, he refused to give it but told me his badge number and said that was all that was required for him to give me. I asked for his pen so i could right it down, he said no. I took the time to read his name tag.

    I immediately go to the nearest police station and ask if Sgt Hlavic works there. They said no but directed me to the station that he does. I drive across town and find out he doesn't work until 11 and I got the name of his Lt. So i burn a couple of hours...about 4 and then return. I speak to the Lt., told him what happend and requested my permit back. The Lt. was a nice enough fellow and explained the dangers of open carrying, not he criminal aspect but the "some rookie cop may draw down on you" perspective. Sgt. Hlavic was there as well and continue to be argumentative with me with regards to Open carrying being illegal. Showed my the state law that says that a permit is needed to carry concealed or in a car. He is under the impression that having the permit FORCES me to carry concealed. I tried to explain that it just gives me that option to which he kept saying I was being combative. I left it at that with my permit in hand. Though they did make a copy and I've no doubt that they will try to have my permit revoked.

    I've no fear in losing it since the act of acting legally is not an act in which the act of revoking is called to be acted upon.

    The worst part is that the Sgt kept saying how pro gun he is and that he believed that everyone should have a gun. Truth is I believe him and thats what makes it bad. I would prefer some anti gun zealot chastising me for carrying rather than a cop whose real beef with me was the fact that I was willing to stand up for my rights and was willing to tell him no and ask the question why.

    I asked the Lt. if a LEO working for Giant Eagle counts as a warning against trespassing and he saidwhile they are technically paid by Giant Eagle while they work they must have the owner/manager tell me that I am not welcome to return before a trespass warning can be issued. With that being said I plan on writing a letter to the Manager of this giant eagle and complaining about the way I was treated and if he wanted my business the officer must be dealt with. 50/50 shot on what the manager will do...but hey, Sam's club has good deals if the manager of the Giant Eagle wants to side with the sheep.



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    Fine job! Prophet educating LEOs in PA as well as in Ca!:celebrate

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    Where's the official complaint and lawsuit?

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    Aside from the stupid things that happened to you, the Lt. is wrong about the trespass notice. The officer is working as an agent for the store, just like the manager. Either one can ban you from the store.

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    They can ask you to leave. To "ban" you from the store might take just a little bit more legal stuff.

    You do need to file a letter of complaint against the officer, though. He needs to be educated on what is legal and what is not. Remember, he's a law enforcement officer, not an opinion enforcement officer.

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    Steve in PA wrote:
    Aside from the stupid things that happened to you, the Lt. is wrong about the trespass notice. The officer is working as an agent for the store, just like the manager. Either one can ban you from the store.
    So can the checkout girl or the bag boy ban me from the store then? I think it takes someone in a management position to actually have the authority to ban me from the store.



    I filed a complaint when I went in...told the Lt. what had happend etc. he wrote it down...maybe he was just placating me but I have too many things to do at the moment to start bringing up lawsuits out the yang.

    Cato, glad you remembered me. yeah...i'm a one man protest march across the country.



    But yeah, i think if i can squeeze out the time i am going to write a more comprehensive letter and back it with some legal documents. Got to keep these LEO's informed...you know...for the sake of the children.

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    So can the checkout girl or the bag boy ban me from the store then? I think it takes someone in a management position to actually have the authority to ban me from the store.
    It's the owner or his/her representative. Would a checkout girl or bag boy suffice as the owner's representative? I do believe a District Magistrate Judge would agree with that definition. If asked to leave by a company representative, it's best to do so.

    Again, don't confuse "banned" with "asked to leave." The former requires a little bit more than an oral statement.

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    Prophet wrote:
    To cut to the chase I went to a Giant Eagle today on Centre Ave. (for those of you who know where that is) and as I am walking in the store with my cart a Pittsburgh LEO calls me over and tells me to cover up my firearm. In order to get my shopping going along I acquiesced and covered it...small shirt so it didn't work too well but whatever. Then the security guard next to him said that my Permit REQUIRED me to carry concealed. To that I said that my permit didn't say CONCEALED anywhere on it. Foolishly I produced my permit to show him it indeed did not say concealed anywhere. The LEO...Sgt. Hlavik took my permit and starting writing down my information. It just hit me that I forfeiting some 4th Amendment rights in trying to prove the point.


    SNIP

    Prophet, you were not being foolish. Unfortunately, at the point when you covered your firearm, the LEO had every rightto ask you to produce your permit.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    Prophet, you were not being foolish. Unfortunately, at the point when you covered your firearm, the LEO had every rightto ask you to produce your permit.
    Thanks for that but I was foolish on two accounts. First, I shouldn't have acquiesced in the first place since I was doing nothing wrong. And secondly he never asked for my permit, I showed it to prove a point.

    I later learned that this was the same officer whom last year approached me and asked me for my permit while I was OC'ing. I told him I didn't need a permit because I wasn't concealing and they he asked me if I wouldn't mind concealing so I wouldn't scare the old ladies shopping. I said ok, concealed and THEN he asked me for my permit. I should've remembered this guy...he's a sneaky one. No more concealing for cops.

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    If you leave your LTCF behind, you can't 'mistakenly' produce it, or even have it 'seized' incident to your arrest, should they take it that far.

    Of course, if you use public transportation, that makes it a bit more difficult.

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    I think it was foolish to produce anything to someone who has no right to ask for it.

    My immediate response is going to be "produce your supervisor"

    followed by a 911 call about a man harassing me.

    followed by an official complaint. If they want to take it further by touching me they'll be a lawsuit.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    If you leave your LTCF behind, you can't 'mistakenly' produce it, or even have it 'seized' incident to your arrest, should they take it that far.

    Of course, if you use public transportation, that makes it a bit more difficult.
    Yes...I would never carry it...IF pennsylvania was a gold star state and I didn't need it when I drove. But seeing as that is the case I carry it for that purpose. But, live and learn...i will be more stout in my 4 amendment rights next time...if there is a next time.

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    If you're driving, leave it in your car. That's where my LTCF stays all of the time, unless I decide to conceal for some reason, then it goes with me.

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    gnbrotz wrote:
    If you're driving, leave it in your car. That's where my LTCF stays all of the time, unless I decide to conceal for some reason, then it goes with me.
    Good idea. I'll do that from now on.

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    You need to file a freedom of information to see how the incident on your were written up AND file a formal complaint.

    If you don't this can bite you in the future

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    codename_47 wrote:
    I think it was foolish to produce anything to someone who has no right to ask for it.
    Just from what the OP wrote it seems clear enough to me that, initially anyway, he felt the officer was on-duty and acting under the policy manual, and I don't mean the store's. Seems reasonable that he felt he was being seized; this is not a consensual contact at this point. And since the gun is already in play if he's asked to produce a carry permit he has to, if he has it on him.


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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    What IS IT with Pennsylvania cops? State and locals... Near everyday it's somethin' else with these yo-yo's. Even the leadership is stuck on stupid.

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    We need a new pro-gun Governor. In Pittsburgh where this happend Mayor Ravenstahl is part of Bloomies anti-gun group.

    Is Frankel your state rep? If not who is? You should visit his office and file a complaint.

    The next time you tell the police officer, very nicely, that In PA OC is not against the law. Also, keep a PA Gun law book in your car trunk. To get one contact your state rep or me at mombrown1@verizon.net and I will send you one.

    Also, tell the LEO that according to his 'oath of office' his job is to protect the rights of ALL the people, not a select few.

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    WIG, a person only has to produce there LTCF if they are carrying concealed, in the city of Philadelphia or while driving. Since there is no need outside of those 3 circumstances to get a LTCF, one does not have to show it to a police officer.

    My mistake came with trying to prove the point that the permit doesn't say "Concealed" anywhere on it and I relinquished it. That was my fault...one I will not make again.

    Sonora, sure does seem that way don't it?

    Mombrown1, you're right about needing a new Governor...but Pittsburgh needed a new Mayor last election buy the boy blunder still won. The Libertarian Kid was VERY pro gun...so pro gun that he was endorsed by the Firearms Owners Against Crime and is an avid open carrier. Now, if Pittsburgher's could have gotten their collective heads out of the pierogies and actually thought about their vote instead of doing the party line thing they could have voted him in with his low tax,pro gun, hands off approach to government. But no...Luke stays in and Casino's don't get built, tunnels to no-where are approved and Pittsburgh cops run amok.

    If only that Libertarian guy won.

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    Prophet wrote:
    WIG, a person only has to produce there LTCF if they are carrying concealed, in the city of Philadelphia or while driving. Since there is no need outside of those 3 circumstances to get a LTCF, one does not have to show it to a police officer.
    Thanks for the clarification. And I sympathize over theGov issue. We have our own burden that way here, but the OC movement is gaining ground since it was his own statement on the record after the CC veto that spawned much of it.If it's McCain we might have the inertia to throw his butt out in 2010; if not, maybe someone will drag his saddleheaded brain to WaDC to a cabinet appointment or an ambassadorship to Mauritania...

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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    What IS IT with Pennsylvania cops? State and locals... Near everyday it's somethin' else with these yo-yo's. Even the leadership is stuck on stupid.
    Its not every LEO and you only hear about interactions with ones where there is a problem such as this. You very seldom hear about interactions where nothing happened.

    On another board a member posted he stopped posting about "good encounters" (with guns) because he got tired of typing............yada, yada, yada.....nothing happened.

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    Steve in PA wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    What IS IT with Pennsylvania cops? State and locals... Near everyday it's somethin' else with these yo-yo's. Even the leadership is stuck on stupid.
    Its not every LEO and you only hear about interactions with ones where there is a problem such as this. You very seldom hear about interactions where nothing happened.

    On another board a member posted he stopped posting about "good encounters" (with guns) because he got tired of typing............yada, yada, yada.....nothing happened.
    Yup, IIRC, PA Patriot's arrest was the first time he ever had a negative LEO encounter. If anything, the number of negative LEO encounters in Pennsylvania is encouraging, because it means that more people are OCing. I'd think that the negative/positive ratio is very low.

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    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Yup, IIRC, PA Patriot's arrest was the first time he ever had a negative LEO encounter. If anything, the number of negative LEO encounters in Pennsylvania is encouraging, because it means that more people are OCing. I'd think that the negative/positive ratio is very low.
    I agree. I've OC'd hundreds, probably well over a thousand times in PA and as you pointed out... one negative LEO encounter. And I have intereacted with LEO and been seen (not interacted) may times.

    Most PA LEO seem to be up to speed. It's the pesky minority that we read about here.



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    Pa. Patriot wrote:
    imperialism2024 wrote:
    Yup, IIRC, PA Patriot's arrest was the first time he ever had a negative LEO encounter. If anything, the number of negative LEO encounters in Pennsylvania is encouraging, because it means that more people are OCing. I'd think that the negative/positive ratio is very low.
    I agree. I've OC'd hundreds, probably well over a thousand times in PA and as you pointed out... one negative LEO encounter. And I have intereacted with LEO and been seen (not interacted) may times.

    Most PA LEO seem to be up to speed. It's the pesky minority that we read about here.


    There are 2 categories I bring up with regards to negative reactions to OC'ing and the police. There are the power trip cops who want to run roughshod over you and exert their opinions in lieu of law and then there are those Police Departments out there that turn a deaf ear to complaints or actively encourage their officers to hassle open carriers.

    I think that while the Redder parts of PA tend to accept and welcome OC'ers the more blue cities have embedded disregard for peoples freedoms and disdain for anyone who knows and expresses their constitutional freedoms. And i'm talking about 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5,th etc. So conversely to PA Patriot, getting hassled for me is the rule and the knowledgable cop is the exception here in Pittsburgh.

    Just imagine PA. Patriot open carrying in Philladelphia (if he has a permit) i don't think his ratio of hassled to non hassled would stay so heavy into the latter.

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    Prophet wrote:
    Just imagine PA. Patriot open carrying in Philladelphia (if he has a permit) i don't think his ratio of hassled to non hassled would stay so heavy into the latter.
    I have OC'd in Phila, as well as ther "blue" cities (Harrisburg, WB, Scranton, Allentown, Pittsburgh) with no issues.

    I do not doubt that my "ratio" will change if I OC more in Phila. I believe it will to some extent. But I stand by my observations of PA as a whole.



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