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Thread: BG shoots into house - Guy in house shoots back and hits BG

  1. #1
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    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4293377

    Man injured in shooting September 18th, 2008 @ 6:36am (KSL News) Gunshots in a West Valley neighborhood left a man bleeding in the street. This morning he's in the hospital.

    It all started around 9:00 last night when neighbors reported hearing the gunfire near 3700 South and 6000 West.
    When officers arrived, they found a man lying in the street with gunshot wounds to his leg and stomach. He was flown to the hospital in critical condition.
    A man and woman inside a nearby home were taken into custody.
    Police believe the man who was shot may have been the woman's ex-husband and had fired shots first, before the man inside the home fired back.



    So to me it sounds like a self defense shooting.


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    Can't wait to see the follow up story but so far sounds like the BG got what he deserved
    Zach
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    Both individuals were taken into custody, doesn't this mean it's not cut and dry self defense?

    ...I'm waiting for the follow up!

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    This report puts a slightly different spin on things.

    http://www.ksl.com/?sid=4292040&nid=148

    "(KSL News) West Valley City police are on the scene of a shooting.

    Dispatchers say a man went to his estranged wife's house near 3700 South and 6000 West and fired gunshots through a window.
    Another man inside the house fired back and hit the other man in the leg and stomach.
    The man outside went to the hospital. The man and the woman inside surrendered to police."



    Still not much is known.



    Tarzan

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    It sounds to me like KSL is putting whatever spin on the story they can because there is very little information.

    To me it is very clear - the BG in the yard fired into the house, so the guy in the house returned fire in self defense hitting the BG.

    Now if the sequence turns out to be different (guy in house shot first) then things are different here, but with the information given, the guy in the house was totally justified in returning fire.

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    Looks like we are going to need to be patient for the clarified version, untill then, i will answer according to the information i have now:

    The ONLY thing that was going on in my mind while i was reading this story was "They did it in the street?" We don't know what type of guns they both were using, It makes no obvious differential between handguns or Rifles. Now, the guy was in the street/sidewalk shooting into the house? The guy from inside the house, returned fire into the street. WOW.

    I dunno. being in the hills is one thing- where you know your bullets are just gonna drop into any ole tree or patch of dirt. The street? As in 'the general public". ya i dunno about that. We're talking neighborhoods, kids, other homes, etc.

    Now, I'm not saying that (if this story is correct) the man should not have returned fire, he was defending himself and another against a violent felony (right?) but take some responsibility, how BAD would you feel when you find out not only did you happen to hit the BG, but a car full of teenagers staying out late, just happened to be driving past...

    Call me a sissy, but i don't ever want to be responsible for any Collateral Damages; For example: the innocent. Which creates a thought in my head : Is self defense a matter of time and place? My own answer is 'No'. Defense is defense. So i guess i got a lot of conflicting feelings on it.





    To clarify:

    I don't frown on self defense, but I DO on stray bullets entering non-offensive targets.

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    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,700259884,00.html

    Here's another version. If this one reads true then I don't think there is any question about self-defense. If someone breaks into your home aren't you allowed to fire even if they don't have a weapon?


    Added: Is there protection from a civil suit if there aren't charges filed against the Homeowner? A comment on this article suggests that Mr. Hunter (the BG here) may file civil suit. What are the laws on this?

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    ProtectedbyHIS9mm wrote:
    http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,700259884,00.html

    Here's another version. If this one reads true then I don't think there is any question about self-defense. If someone breaks into your home aren't you allowed to fire even if they don't have a weapon?


    Added: Is there protection from a civil suit if there aren't charges filed against the Homeowner? A comment on this article suggests that Mr. Hunter (the BG here) may file civil suit. What are the laws on this?
    "
    Intruder shot by homeowner in West Valley

    By Pat ReavyDeseret NewsPublished: Thursday, Sept. 18, 2008 10:26 a.m. MDT



    An estranged husband who was shot after breaking into the home of his wife's male friend remained at University Hospital Thursday.

    Robert Hunter, 50, was shot in the chest and arms with a 12-gauge shotgun after police say he broke into the home of Joe McIntosh Wednesday night. West Valley police Capt. Tom McLachlan said Hunter was not believed to be in life-threatening condition.

    The incident began just before 9 p.m. near 3700 South and 6000 West. Hunter parked his truck a street away and walked to McIntosh's home. Hunter, who had been separated from his wife for several months, had been served divorce papers earlier that day, McLachlan said.

    His estranged wife was in the house with McIntosh. Hunter went to the back sliding glass door and entered the house after shattering the glass, McLachlan said.

    There had been previous incidents between Hunter and McIntosh, including some threats, McLachlan said.

    "Those threats may have made (McIntosh) quite leery," he said.

    McIntosh fired a shotgun at Hunter almost as soon as he entered. Hunter was hit and retreated. Investigators later learned that Hunter was carrying 9-mm and .22-caliber handguns with him that were loaded. Police said whether Hunter pointed his weapons at anyone, whether he fired a shot or whether McIntosh even knew he was armed, were all questions being addressed in the ongoing investigation.

    Officers arriving at the scene weren't sure what had happened at first, and for safety they set up a containment of the area and had McIntosh and the woman come outside and surrender.

    Hunter was found next to his truck, McLachlan said. He was taken by medical helicopter to the hospital.

    McIntosh was not arrested. All three weapons involved in the incident were seized as evidence. McLachlan said the case would be screened by the Salt Lake District Attorney's Office to determine what charges to file, if any, and against whom they should be filed.

    Speaking in general terms and not specific to Wednesday's incident, McLachlan said citizens have a right to defend themselves and their homes by reasonable means and can defend their lives if they believe there is a valid threat against their own life. "





    It is all now very clear as self defense.





    Tarzan

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    Wow I guess KSL got it way wrong when they reported that Hunter (estranged husband) shot into the house of McIntosh. Either way, it's a clear cut case of self defense based on the info we have been given.

    I really hope the Salt Lake DA's office doesn't drag it's feet in clearing this guy and filing charges against Hunter. Also they need to give McIntosh his shotgun back post-haste.

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    jaredbelch wrote:
    I really hope the Salt Lake DA's office doesn't drag it's feet in clearing this guy and filing charges against Hunter. Also they need to give McIntosh his shotgun back post-haste.
    +1

    The Tribune has updated with a new article including information that Hunter had been served with divorce papers the day before. Motive!

    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10499013?source=rss
    Under Utah law, a resident has the right to protect his property, but he or she must use "reasonable force," McLachlan said.
    The case will be sent to the Salt Lake County District Attorney's office for screening for possible charges today.

    Why wouldn't a shotgun be seen as "reasonable force" when a man BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME WITH TWO LOADED WEAPONS!?!?

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    Tarzan Wrote:
    Hunter went to the back sliding glass door and entered the house after shattering the glass,...
    OMG.

    If a guy breaking into your home via a glass sliding door isn't considered a "valid iminent threat of bodily harm or injury", guns or not, I don't know what is..

    This is why Florida's "Castle Doctrine" is SO cut and dry. A person in YOUR home, whether or not invited, who is not willing to leave, can be dealt with by means of deadly force. PERIOD. Don't even get me started on how awesome their "Stand Your Ground" law is..

    All of this: "Ya, you can defend yourself, but you better have an awesome attorney.." is crap. We shouldn't be in fear of prosecution for self defense.

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    Here is the Utah Code on this issue;



    " 76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
    (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
    (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
    (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
    (2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony."




    Little doubt on this one.



    I have added the emphasis.



    Tarzan




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    tarzan1888 wrote:
    Here is the Utah Code on this issue;



    " 76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
    (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
    (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
    (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
    (2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony."




    Little doubt on this one.



    I have added the emphasis.



    Tarzan


    I'm glad it mentions civil defense also. I also hope the DA actually reads and applies the above law to this situation and files charges only on Hunter.

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    ProtectedbyHIS9mm wrote:
    tarzan1888 wrote:
    Here is the Utah Code on this issue;



    " 76-2-405. Force in defense of habitation.
    (1) A person is justified in using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other's unlawful entry into or attack upon his habitation; however, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or serious bodily injury only if:
    (a) the entry is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering personal violence to any person, dwelling, or being in the habitation and he reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the assault or offer of personal violence; or
    (b) he reasonably believes that the entry is made or attempted for the purpose of committing a felony in the habitation and that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony.
    (2) The person using force or deadly force in defense of habitation is presumed for the purpose of both civil and criminal cases to have acted reasonably and had a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or serious bodily injury if the entry or attempted entry is unlawful and is made or attempted by use of force, or in a violent and tumultuous manner, or surreptitiously or by stealth, or for the purpose of committing a felony."




    Little doubt on this one.



    I have added the emphasis.



    Tarzan


    I'm glad it mentions civil defense also. I also hope the DA actually reads and applies the above law to this situation and files charges only on Hunter.
    And it doesn't matter one little IOTA if the homeowner knew the perp was armed or not.... BREAKING the glass door IS A ENTRY IN A VIOLENT OR TUMULTUOUS MANNER... Perp is lucky he didn't get MORE from the shotgun!

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    ProtectedbyHIS9mm wrote:
    j
    http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10499013?source=rss
    Under Utah law, a resident has the right to protect his property, but he or she must use "reasonable force," McLachlan said.
    The case will be sent to the Salt Lake County District Attorney's office for screening for possible charges today.

    Why wouldn't a shotgun be seen as "reasonable force" when a man BREAKS INTO YOUR HOME WITH TWO LOADED WEAPONS!?!?
    Notice how the anti-gun, anti-self-defense SLTrib subtly changes the subject here from defense of PERSON to defense of property.

    If you step into your front yard to stop someone from stealing your car, you are defending property.

    But if someone is trying to or actually breaking into your occupied home you are legally presumed, under utah law, to be defending your own LIFE, not the TV set or the silverware.

    If anyone ever attempts unlawful entry to my home and I determine that the use of deadly force is warranted to stop him, you may rest assured it be only to defend my and other innocent LIFE, not mere property. Remember,

    "Officer, I was in fear for my life and limb. I acted in lawful, moral self-defense. Under the circumstances I cannot answer any questions until I have a chance to visit with my attorney whom I'd like to contact at this time."
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

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    Is it REALLY the thoughts of some that: "I would rather be murdered than possibly taking the life of my assailant." ? (I indicate it being a 'possibility', and not intent. The intent is to/should be- to stop the threat.)


    utbagpiper wrote:

    "Officer, I was in fear for my life and limb. I acted in lawful, moral self-defense. Under the circumstances I cannot answer any questions until I have a chance to visit with my attorney whom I'd like to contact at this time."
    +1

    Remember, LEO don't even talk to anyone with an 'Officer involved shooting', until a union rep., Chief, or Attorney comes into play. Why should we cover less of our asses?

    Well said utbagpiper.

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    Update.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=4328756

    Simply put, BG who was shot while trying to break in is now facing felony charges.

    Shooter, defending himself will not face charges.


    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

  18. #18
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Update.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=4328756

    Simply put, BG who was shot while trying to break in is now facing felony charges.

    Shooter, defending himself will not face charges.

    Thanks for the update, all signs pointed to this outcome.

  19. #19
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    utbagpiper wrote:
    Update.

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=4328756

    Simply put, BG who was shot while trying to break in is now facing felony charges.

    Shooter, defending himself will not face charges.
    Good call by the District Attorney's Office. I'm happy to see the GG came out on top.

    BG's beware: thats the chance you take when you enter a home with the intent to do bad things...

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