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Thread: Another point of view regarding the Culpeper Town meeting

  1. #26
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    "Hello,

    I read your representative'sletter in the StarExponent today.


    I support the right to protect oneself. Personally, I think only people who are extremely insecure, obsessed,or wacko need to collect semi-automatics and other numerous weapons of death; BUT, it's their choice. ...."


    I guess I am an obsessedwacko!!
    Wonder how her co-workers would feel about that!
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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  2. #27
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    ProShooter wrote:
    bayboy42 wrote:
    ProShooter wroe
    Dear Ms. Sullivan,

    Thank you for your email. I appreciate your thoughts and comments. As a gun owner, I do own a few semi-automatic handguns. I'm not sure that you can say that I 'collect' them, and hopefully I'm not viewed as a 'wacko', to use a term from your email. I could potentially say that people who collect coins, stamps, and garden gnomes are also extremely insecure, obsessed and wacko, but then I'd sound as ridiculous as you did in yourhoplophobic assessment of gun owners.
    I do not know the history of the gun issue at Yowell Meadow Park that you speak of. I'm sure that rather than the Town being "forced to allow guns back in the park", it was morea matter of the Town being forced to follow the state law. I'm sure that you would not want your elected officials violating state law, now would you?
    By your own statements in your email "the park...where many young children, elderly and other non-violent, non-threatening people used to enjoy gathering. It IS simply a matter of time when someone will allow something to get out of hand and someone will be shot...Face it, it's not just the "good folks" who own weaponry" - I couldn't agree more. Wouldn't it be nice if there were law abiding citizens there with the means and ability to protect those innocent children, elderly, and non-violent people? Crime happens everywhere Ms. Sullivan, and good people have the right to protect themselves.
    We could debate gun rights all day. The point of my letter, and the purpose of those in attendance at the Town meeting is not to tell you how to kill garden pests. The purpose of their presence there that evening is greater than the discussion of how to eliminate mice from nibbling on your tomatoes. The point is that there is already a state law in place that addresses these things. Once we allow local government to start passing laws and ordinances more restrictive than state law, we give up certain freedoms. There is already a state law prohibiting jurisdictions from passing more restrictivelocal laws regarding firearms. If anything, the presence of those gun owners there that evening possibly saved the Town of Culpeper from future lawsuits and bad publicity by convincing them to make the correct decision not to pass the ordinance. Numerous localities across Virginia have been taken to task in recent months because of this issue.
    You asked me in your email whether we are prepared to pay all the bills when someone is hurt because of one little mistake.Let me ask you the same thing. If the Town of Culpeper bans guns at their meetings, as Mr. Meriwether suggested, and someone is assaulted, injured or killed because they were not afforded the right to defend themselves with their legally owned firearm, will the Town of Culpeper be prepared to pay all of the medical bills and lawsuits?
    You are correct in your assessment of gun ownersthat no one knows what level of ability they have with marksmanship, how much training they may have, whether they know much about gun safety, or or how good their peripheral vision is. The same statement and assessment could be made about vehicle owners. Should we ban all cars from being driven to Town meetings or within the town limits? Do you know how many more people are killed by cars than by guns each year? Have you been properly trained to operate your gas barbecue grill? Do you know how much danger an improperly handled and/or maintained propane cylinder can cause? Should be prohibitoutdoor cooking with anything other than charcoal or firewood?Did you attend a safety class and pass a proficiency test when you purchased that set of steak knives on your kitchen counter? The list is endless Ms. Sullivan.
    Again, the issue is not about shooting backyard pests, its about passing laws that do not need to be passed, and the possibility of freedoms being lost or limited due to the passing of these unnecessary laws.


    Regards,

    James A. Reynolds
    President
    Proactive Shooters, LLC
    The red statement above is factually incorrect. If I read your statement correctly, I believe what you are reffering to is what we call "Preemption" around here. Preemption doesn't prevent jurisdictions from passing laws regarding the discharge of firearms which is what Culpepper tried to do.

    I'm not trying to justify what Culpepper attempted to do, only point out a factual error. Maybe I just mis-interpreted your statement?
    I see what you are saying, but my intent was that there is a law adressing firearms. I wasnt specifically talking about "discharge" but more to the fact that a law exists talking about firearms and we dont more local laws talking about firearms. I probably could have phrased it better....but I was on a roll.... She was so off the chart that I dont think it phased her anyway.
    Cool. Thanks for clearing up my mis-interpretation!!

  3. #28
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    Funny how things work out in the long run.... the woman who wrote this email to ProShooter back in 2008 is the <strike> current </strike> Correction: former Administrative Assistant to the Chief of Police... and the mother of the Culpeper cop who has just been charged with murder (among other charges).... and she herself has been charged for accessing her sons personel records and 'taking all the bad stuff out'....

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...=1#post1762242

    Someone should ask her how she feels about those 'good folks' now....


    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    From the other thread on this, I'm sure that you all read the email that I sent to the columnist at the StarExponent. A few minutes ago, I received an email from a woman using a Town of Culpeper email address. I'm unsure as to what her postion is but I found her email so entertaining that I felt the need to post it here. Obviously, she doesnt want anyone to harm the backyard pests that may nibble at her garden.....

    First, her email in italics, followed by my reply in bold.....enjoy the read...

    Hello,

    I read your representative'sletter in the StarExponent today.

    I support the right to protect oneself. Personally, I think only people who are extremely insecure, obsessed,or wacko need to collect semi-automatics and other numerous weapons of death; BUT, it's their choice.

    About the Town of Culpeper. I stopped walking in Yowell Meadow Park when the Town was forced to allow guns back in the park...where many young children, elderly and other non-violent, non-threatening people used to enjoy gathering. It IS simply a matter of time when someone will allow something to get out of hand and someone will be shot...I simply don't want to be there when it happens. Face it, it's not just the "good folks" who own weaponry.

    I do not think you should be allowed to shoot a firearm in such small lots as found in most Towns. There are many ways to get rid of pests to your backyard garden; you don't have to shoot them to get rid of them. It is NOT safe to use a firearm in a lot that may only be 8,000 square feet with homes, yards and children near by. No one wanted to take away the right to bear arms or protect themselves in their homes - that was stressed and in writing early on.

    I guess people get rabid about gun rights, which ever side they are on -- and perhaps commonsense is lost along the way - but, seriously, are you and your organization going to pay all the bills when that 1st incident occurs and someone is hurt/maimed/killed because one "little mistake" that can happen in such close quarters? No one knows what level of ability these individuals have with marksmanship, how much training they may or may not have, whether or not they know much about gun safety and how good or bad their peripheral vision is; and face it, I doubt the evil garden villian will simply sit still and wait to be shot. What guarantee is there that allowing this right to fire firearms in Town limits is safe now that the population has increased so dramatically over the last 5-6 years? Gone are the days of large green space and buffer areas.

    There are times when it IS appropriate and intelligent to say, "no" to being able to shoot your weapon; in backyards of Towns; thisis one of them. Again, no one wants to take your guns away from you -- we just don't want people firing them in such close quarters.

    The Town of Vienna does not allow this, nor do they allow shooting of bb/air guns. It's legal and permissible, and makes sense. Again - they don't forbid ownership -just trying to prevent a tragic accident.

    Thanks for your time.

    Bethany Sullivan





    Dear Ms. Sullivan,

    Thank you for your email. I appreciate your thoughts and comments. As a gun owner, I do own a few semi-automatic handguns. I'm not sure that you can say that I 'collect' them, and hopefully I'm not viewed as a 'wacko', to use a term from your email. I could potentially say that people who collect coins, stamps, and garden gnomes are also extremely insecure, obsessed and wacko, but then I'd sound as ridiculous as you did in yourhoplophobic assessment of gun owners.
    I do not know the history of the gun issue at Yowell Meadow Park that you speak of. I'm sure that rather than the Town being "forced to allow guns back in the park", it was morea matter of the Town being forced to follow the state law. I'm sure that you would not want your elected officials violating state law, now would you?
    By your own statements in your email "the park...where many young children, elderly and other non-violent, non-threatening people used to enjoy gathering. It IS simply a matter of time when someone will allow something to get out of hand and someone will be shot...Face it, it's not just the "good folks" who own weaponry" - I couldn't agree more. Wouldn't it be nice if there were law abiding citizens there with the means and ability to protect those innocent children, elderly, and non-violent people? Crime happens everywhere Ms. Sullivan, and good people have the right to protect themselves.
    We could debate gun rights all day. The point of my letter, and the purpose of those in attendance at the Town meeting is not to tell you how to kill garden pests. The purpose of their presence there that evening is greater than the discussion of how to eliminate mice from nibbling on your tomatoes. The point is that there is already a state law in place that addresses these things. Once we allow local government to start passing laws and ordinances more restrictive than state law, we give up certain freedoms. There is already a state law prohibiting jurisdictions from passing more restrictivelocal laws regarding firearms. If anything, the presence of those gun owners there that evening possibly saved the Town of Culpeper from future lawsuits and bad publicity by convincing them to make the correct decision not to pass the ordinance. Numerous localities across Virginia have been taken to task in recent months because of this issue.
    You asked me in your email whether we are prepared to pay all the bills when someone is hurt because of one little mistake.Let me ask you the same thing. If the Town of Culpeper bans guns at their meetings, as Mr. Meriwether suggested, and someone is assaulted, injured or killed because they were not afforded the right to defend themselves with their legally owned firearm, will the Town of Culpeper be prepared to pay all of the medical bills and lawsuits?
    You are correct in your assessment of gun ownersthat no one knows what level of ability they have with marksmanship, how much training they may have, whether they know much about gun safety, or or how good their peripheral vision is. The same statement and assessment could be made about vehicle owners. Should we ban all cars from being driven to Town meetings or within the town limits? Do you know how many more people are killed by cars than by guns each year? Have you been properly trained to operate your gas barbecue grill? Do you know how much danger an improperly handled and/or maintained propane cylinder can cause? Should be prohibitoutdoor cooking with anything other than charcoal or firewood?Did you attend a safety class and pass a proficiency test when you purchased that set of steak knives on your kitchen counter? The list is endless Ms. Sullivan.
    Again, the issue is not about shooting backyard pests, its about passing laws that do not need to be passed, and the possibility of freedoms being lost or limited due to the passing of these unnecessary laws.


    Regards,

    James A. Reynolds
    President
    Proactive Shooters, LLC
    Last edited by Blk97F150; 05-30-2012 at 03:51 AM.

  4. #29
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Wow, talk about a strange turn of events... Who would have guessed she was talking about her own son when she was worried about people with guns getting out of hand!

    I wonder who she will be hiring for HER attorney!?

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Wow, talk about a strange turn of events... Who would have guessed she was talking about her own son when she was worried about people with guns getting out of hand!

    I wonder who she will be hiring for HER attorney!?

    TFred
    I'm sure in her mind.... its all the guns fault!! Damn guns, they just kill so many people... all by themselves!!!

  6. #31
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    A very unusual place, thank God!
    They may well be as bad as Surry.

    Now I have to wonder if Dear Old Mom is ....The Raven?

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    More:

    http://www2.starexponent.com/news/20...ng-ar-1951488/

    “Through the course of the special jury’s investigation into the shooting incident, evidence came to light concerning Ms. Sullivan’s role in forging public records in an attempt to purge Harmon-Wright’s personnel file of negative information,” Fisher told the crowd of reporters during Tuesday’s press conference.

    Bethany Sullivan was an employee of the Culpeper Town Police Department under former chief Dan Boring when Harmon-Wright was hired five years ago.

    Fisher added that the dates Sullivan tried to alter documents occurred on April 30, 2008 and in May 2010, unrelated to the Feb. 9 shooting.

    “They were prior incidences not related to the shooting incident, but rather related to other incidences relating to her son,” Fisher explained. “She was the custodian of records at the time and had access to his personnel files and it’s his personnel files that she’s been charged with having some of the documents forged or altered.”

    According to Fisher, Bethany Sullivan left the police department in May 2010.

  8. #33
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    I think it's clear that Mrs. Sullivan was not the author of the email, but someone was using her name for political subterfuge. She does not live in Culpeper County, by the way. Apparently, Mrs. Sullivan had political problems with the former Chief because of her having made complaints about misconduct of certain officers within the department. Being a romantic idealist, she made the mistake of assuming that people really want to do the right thing, including the former Chief, and made too much noise about what she saw as problems within the department. You can see the results. It might be worthwhile to track down the URL's from the email headers to find out where it really came from.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I think it's clear that Mrs. Sullivan was not the author of the email, but someone was using her name for political subterfuge. She does not live in Culpeper County, by the way. Apparently, Mrs. Sullivan had political problems with the former Chief because of her having made complaints about misconduct of certain officers within the department. Being a romantic idealist, she made the mistake of assuming that people really want to do the right thing, including the former Chief, and made too much noise about what she saw as problems within the department. You can see the results. It might be worthwhile to track down the URL's from the email headers to find out where it really came from.
    So, contrary to what Jim Reynolds believed back in 2008, your contention is that the e-mail didn't come from an authentic "Town of Culpeper email address" even though she apparently was working for the town at the time?

    Might be clear to you Dan, but it isn't to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    I wonder who she will be hiring for HER attorney!?
    The answer to your question might have just appeared. LOL!

    (btw, if thats the case... I sure as hell don't fault her... or even the officer for that matter.... for retaining the best defense lawyer they could find. If I were facing criminal charges, I would want the best I could find as well.)

    Yup, this is gonna get interesting....

  11. #36
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    Proshooter, while I can appreciate your intent, your reply to this person was not very helpful. You didn't really reply to her email, you used it as a platform to make a 'position statement'. You also used words that she wouldn't readily know the meaning of and you were a bit sarcastic. So often we do this - we pontificate when we really mean to educate. I'm sure I've done this kind of thing, so I'm not simply casting aspersions, I'm just hoping to get you to realize that you didn't make any relevant points from which she would be able to learn.

    For example, I would have suggested you say 'the danger is not in the park, necessarily, it's coming to and going from the park. It's in the parking lot at a supermarket and elsewhere where you're simply not expecting it. Therefore, if you feel you have a duty to protect yourself and your loved ones and don't own a crystal ball, you have to carry at all times where the state law allows.', or words to that effect.

    I would try to put myself in the person's place and try to respond in a way that would be received as a gentle way to educate and illuminate on the benefits of carrying. Anyway, good thread, hope my reply is useful.
    ====
    To speak to the rest of the thread, it is indeed ironic that this woman's son was actually the kind of person about which she was most concerned, and I'm sure that totally escapes her, even now.
    Last edited by sawah; 05-30-2012 at 09:27 AM.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    With the seriousness and amount of felony charges mother & son have accumulated so far, I suspect they will be seeking court appointed counsel unless they have quite a nestegg saved up. They're facing anywhere from $150,000 to $300,000 in legal fees.
    Don't know about Mom but

    User has already agreed to represent him so he has the best now.
    I know a little about Mom that isn't public and her relationship in a lot of areas is complicated, but since I don't know if User is representing her or if any of that would bleed over...and because of the relationship some in the pro gun world has with her, I'll leave it lay for now.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-31-2012 at 02:58 PM.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheriff View Post
    I acknowledge this was the case prior to Tuesday's indiictments. But since 4 felony indictments have come down the pike, User may or may not be reviewing his decision to represent the cop. If the cop remains in jail without bond and without income, I suspect User will indeed revisit his decision to represent the cop. These felony indictments are going to occupy a lot of his time for the next year or two, and he may or may not be willing to do it for free.

    Trust me, this is one of the major problems in our Criminal Justice System, being able to AFFORD the attorney of your choice. Attorneys will not work a case of this nature with the hope and promise of eventually getting paid. Suppose the cop goes to jail for 20 years, how will the attorney ever get paid?

    If the cop is eligible, I suspect Hawes will tell him to seek a court appointed attorney. But, I have been wrong before. Maybe Hawes will work for free.
    At this point I doubt he could qualify for a court appointed attorney. Since Dan is the current attorney of record, the judge may well appoint him the court appointed attorney, if he does manage to qualify.

    As to what User would do....who knows but I know Dan well enough to say he isn't just going to drop him in the fire. He has too many scruples for that.

    And yeah...that is a major flaw in our system. Justice for sale. A court appointed attorney is judicial suicide in a lot of cases but the good lawyers would like to be paid.
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 05-31-2012 at 02:59 PM.

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    More on Ms Sullivans charges...

    http://www2.starexponent.com/news/20...fe-ar-1954837/

    In indicting the officer Tuesday on the aforementioned charges, the special grand jury also indicted his mother, Bethany Sullivan, 55, of Orange on three felony counts of forging a public record and three counts of uttering a forged public record. According to court documents, the alleged forgeries occurred on April 30, 2008 and May 17, 2010.

    Fisher at the news conference Tuesday said during the course of the special grand jury’s investigation into the shooting evidence came to light concerning Mrs. Sullivan’s role in forging the documents in an attempt to purge negative information from her son’s personnel record.

    According to court documents, those records included the Town of Culpeper Police Department Entrance Exam and a town of Culpeper performance evaluation for the period of August 30, 2006 through August 30, 2007.

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    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    How did I miss until now the fact that you guys dredged up this old thread? Oh brother!
    James Reynolds

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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    How did I miss until now the fact that you guys dredged up this old thread? Oh brother!
    Mumsi may be the more interesting case Jim!

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Wow, talk about a strange turn of events... Who would have guessed she was talking about her own son when she was worried about people with guns getting out of hand!

    I wonder who she will be hiring for HER attorney!?

    TFred
    Wow!
    How come a DUI you can get your driver licence back, which it is a privilege. But if commiting a felon, even something non violent like stealing, you are denied your constitutional rights for the rest of your life?
    If you don't support the Second Amendment to the Constitution, what other parts of the Constitution do you reject?
    More restrictions on guns? how about restrictions on chainsaws and knives?

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