I am all for rights but it is a bad idea.

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jfrenchudm wrote:

OCC is not exempt from the state of Michigan pre-emption law. As I showed in other threads, the Michigan state constitution specifically provides the power to rule over campus properties to not only the big 3 (WSU, MSU, UM), but also to other state universities. Community colleges do not fall under this exception, and their rules only apply to students and faculty, but do not carry the weight of law. There is a chance that a challenge to the state university ordinances would win, as the ordinances violate not only the state constitution, but also the federal.

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This is still a gray area. MCRGO's is trying to draft a letter to the AG on this very argument. OCC could be found to be exempt because they are not a local government. See where this is going and were the gray area is? If preemption only applies to local governments, and an argument can be made for this, and a College is NOT a local government, then it follows that they do not fall under the preemption law. The other side as I mentioned in a previous post is that Colleges can have ordinances and pass laws like local governments so they should fall under preemption. This has not been challenged in court or is there an AG opinion on it. Until then, all we have are opinions by people that don't have the weight of law.

As for the big three, I heard something about them prosecuting or not prosecuting firearm violation on their campuses,because of the vagueness of all this. My suggestion would be to contact the legal team (private law firm) that prosecutes the big threes ordinances and see if they are pursuing charges against anyone for these firearm violations.


Until we get a better legal opinion we suggest you all use caution when carrying on public colleges.

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JeffSayers wrote:

M16a2 wrote:

I am not interested in costing the people on the city money for then officers mistake.

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You could always donate the money back to the city in honor of the armed law-abiding citizens that live there. That would look really good in the newspaper!

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What a great idea!

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Task Force 16 wrote:

M16a2 wrote:

Again I need to understand this better. If it is a building with a No Gun sign i need to CC or I can OC cuz I have a CCW? WHAT ??????

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Don't know about your locale, but in Tn, a "No Firearms" sign means NO FIREARMS period. No CC, no OC.

However, if the business doesn't want OC (but are OK with CC) they won't post a sign, they will ask you to coneal your weapon or take it to your car. If you refuse they will ask you to leave and if you don't leave, they'll call the cops and have you arrested for trespass.

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In Michigan, a "No Firearms" sign, means Conceal it and don't tell.

The sign really carries no force of law behind it. Unless you are found out, and asked to remove your weapon from the premises. If you refuse, then you can be charged with trespassing. I usually hand over one of my "No Guns= No $" cards and leave.

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Big Gay Al wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

M16a2 wrote:

Again I need to understand this better. If it is a building with a No Gun sign i need to CC or I can OC cuz I have a CCW? WHAT ??????

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Don't know about your locale, but in Tn, a "No Firearms" sign means NO FIREARMS period. No CC, no OC.

However, if the business doesn't want OC (but are OK with CC) they won't post a sign, they will ask you to coneal your weapon or take it to your car. If you refuse they will ask you to leave and if you don't leave, they'll call the cops and have you arrested for trespass.

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In Michigan, a "No Firearms" sign, means Conceal it and don't tell.

The sign really carries no force of law behind it. Unless you are found out, and asked to remove your weapon from the premises. If you refuse, then you can be charged with trespassing. I usually hand over one of my "No Guns= No $" cards and leave.

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Big Al, you may very well be the only one here at OCDO who would do something like that. :uhoh:

But anyway, I'm going to somewhat disagree; This is MCRGO's take on signage:





Q:
My CPL has the box labeled "Exempt from Pistol Free zones MCL28.425o(4)" checked. How does this affect my carrying my firearm in an establishment which has a "No Firearms Allowed" posting?

A:
Even those who are exempt from the Pistol Free Zones established in the statute must still honor the wishes of any party in control of real estate regarding the possession of weapons on the premises. If you disregard a sign or a verbal or written notice that guns are not allowed in a particular location, your legal status is that of trespasser. One of the results is that you are no longer covered by the "Stand Your Ground" law that went into effect late last year. The Stand Your Ground rule allows individuals to use proportional force in self defense without having to retreat, so long as they are in a place where they have a legal right to be. Even a CPL holder who is exempt from the Pistol Free Zones loses this legal protection while carrying in violation of a posted notice that guns are not allowed on the premises.

A quick review of proportionality: Any use of a firearm will probably be considered an application of deadly force. Deadly force is only appropriate in self defense when it is proportional to the threat. So, a firearm may only be used to prevent death, great bodily harm that could lead to death, or rape. Deadly force in defense of others is allowed so long as the person being defended would have been justified in using deadly force to protect him or herself. Think of yourself as "stepping into the shoes" of the person you are defending. Ask yourself the question, "If I were that person, would I be justified in shooting?" If the answer is yes, your discharge of your firearm will be considered an action taken in the legally protected defense of another.

This has been discussed here in the Michigan Sub-Forum, at length, a time or two.

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Big Gay Al wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

M16a2 wrote:

Again I need to understand this better. If it is a building with a No Gun sign i need to CC or I can OC cuz I have a CCW? WHAT ??????

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Don't know about your locale, but in Tn, a "No Firearms" sign means NO FIREARMS period. No CC, no OC.

However, if the business doesn't want OC (but are OK with CC) they won't post a sign, they will ask you to coneal your weapon or take it to your car. If you refuse they will ask you to leave and if you don't leave, they'll call the cops and have you arrested for trespass.

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In Michigan, a "No Firearms" sign, means Conceal it and don't tell.

The sign really carries no force of law behind it. Unless you are found out, and asked to remove your weapon from the premises. If you refuse, then you can be charged with trespassing. I usually hand over one of my "No Guns= No $" cards and leave.

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How do you figure that the "No Firearms" signs have "no force of law behind it" if you can be charged with trespass for refusing to leave a posted premises?

In Tennessee, if you are arrested for trespass while armed, it could result in revokement of our HCP, which we need to carry a handgun in public.

"NO Firearms" "No Hunting" "No Fishing" "No Trespassing" signs do have force of law to back them up, otherwise there would be no point in posting the signs at all.

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Let me help confuse some , Sign states NOT responsible for shopping cart damage WRONG , NOT reasonable for INJURY wrong , not responsible for theft wrong . Just a thought ! Ther are many more in MICHIGAN !

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What I was attempting to get across, apparently rather badly, is there's no law in Michigan with regards to "No Guns" signs. There fore, you Realistically can ignore them.

Naturally, if you go into a place of business with a "No Guns" sign, then you do risk being asked to leave, but UNTIL they ask you to leave, you are not breaking any laws.

I was not referring to pistol free zones, as they are not required to post any signs. Those places (hospitals, casinos, schools, and so forth) are definitely off limits for concealed carry permit holders.

I was referring to businesses who post "No Guns" signs on their property.

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I see two states, anyway, involved in this thread, now three.

Trespass law is as convoluted and contentious as 2A law.

Hypothetically; armed you enter private property. The proprietor demands you leave. You have effective notice and are trespassing. You decline to leave this instant. You are trespassing and may be charged but the proprietor may not 'charge' you because only the State can bring criminal charges. The proprietor calls the State, the police. He cannot prevent your cure of the tort by leaving in your good time; hands on is battery and threats is assault.

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taxwhat wrote:

Let me help confuse some , Sign states NOT responsible for shopping cart damage WRONG , NOT reasonable for INJURY wrong , not responsible for theft wrong . Just a thought ! Ther are many more in MICHIGAN !

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Well, I don't know about those signs, all I know about are that the signs people put up saying "No Guns" have no real meaning, until they spot your gun and ask you to leave. Effectively, they might as well forget the signs and just keep a watch out for who's packing, so they can ask you to leave at that point.

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Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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Please do not compare posted no trespass signs on private property <>to shopping open to public . Apple to rock .

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Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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The reason being that people simply ignore such signs. To me, that is disrespectful of the property owners rights.

I'm not a lawyer by any means, but I think that if a property is posted properly, the owner doesn't have to tell you to leave. Once they know that you are on the premises, in violation of their signs, they can call the cops and have you arrested without confronting you first. However, due to the fact that they would have tosign off on a formal complaint and appear in court to testify against the violator (an inconvenience to them) they choose to ask you to leave (or comply with whatever their policy is) before calling the cops. Also, when a store owner ask you to leave the posted premises, they are actually givingthe violator of their posted policya chance to avoid arrest, which obviously would be an inconvenience to both parties.

Personally, I don't see any confusion. It's a matter of respecting the rights of others, even when we may not agree with it.

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Task Force 16 wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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The reason being that people simply ignore such signs. To me, that is disrespectful of the property owners rights.

I'm not a lawyer by any means, but I think that if a property is posted properly, the owner doesn't have to tell you to leave. Once they know that you are on the premises, in violation of their signs, they can call the cops and have you arrested without confronting you first. However, due to the fact that they would have tosign off on a formal complaint and appear in court to testify against the violator (an inconvenience to them) they choose to ask you to leave (or comply with whatever their policy is) before calling the cops. Also, when a store owner ask you to leave the posted premises, they are actually givingthe violator of their posted policya chance to avoid arrest, which obviously would be an inconvenience to both parties.

Personally, I don't see any confusion. It's a matter of respecting the rights of others, even when we may not agree with it.

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Task Force hit the nail on the head.

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Task Force 16 wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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Personally, I don't see any confusion. It's a matter of respecting the rights of others, even when we may not agree with it.

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And here we come full circle. What about MY rights? When a business posts against lawful self-defense, what about MY rights?

And for the record, I generally do not enter a business that has posted no guns signs. Except maybe long enough to hand over a "No Guns=No $" card, to let them know they lost money with that sign.

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Somebody want to put up a sign to get rid of this dead horse, I think it's been whipped long enough!:uhoh:

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Big Gay Al wrote:

.......for the record, I generally do not enter a business that has posted no guns signs. Except maybe long enough to hand over a "No Guns=No $" card, to let them know they lost money with that sign.

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Unless of course, I just didn't see the sign. There are some places that have this little, nearly see-thru signs that you'd have to actively be looking for, in order to see it.

I forget the name of the place, except it's a furniture store on the corner of Waverly and St. Joe. The last time I was about to go into that place, I just spotted the sign. I wasn't looking for it, I just happened to spot it. It was maybe a little bigger than a large index card, mostly clear, with dark lettering that I could barely make out.

Needless to say, I walked in found the manager, handed him one of those cards that I think I got from Michigan Gun Owners, and walked out. Too bad for them, I was about to spend about $700.00 of my income tax return on furniture.

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Big Gay Al wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

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Personally, I don't see any confusion. It's a matter of respecting the rights of others, even when we may not agree with it.

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And here we come full circle. What about MY rights? When a business posts against lawful self-defense, what about MY rights?

And for the record, I generally do not enter a business that has posted no guns signs. Except maybe long enough to hand over a "No Guns=No $" card, to let them know they lost money with that sign.

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What about your rights? Has your right to carry a firearm for self defense been taken away? Only if you choose to leave your handgun in the car and do business with the store that bans firearms on the premises. But you don't have to do business with them, you can take you business somewhere else that does not ban firearms.

You see, nothing has been taken from you, unless you choose to give it up temporarily, to comply with the posted stores "No Firearms" policy.

In time, these businesses that bar guns from their premises may learn a hard lesson from their decission. When they start being the primary target for violant crimes, while other businesses that do not bar firearms go relatively unscathed, the public will become afraid to pratonize these "gun free zones". They'll either have to change their policy or possibly go out of business.

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WARCHILD wrote:

Somebody want to put up a sign to get rid of this dead horse, I think it's been whipped long enough!:uhoh:

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lol

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warlockmatized wrote:

WARCHILD wrote:

Somebody want to put up a sign to get rid of this dead horse, I think it's been whipped long enough!:uhoh:

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lol

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Well, I keep trying to bury the dang thing. Everytime we get some dirt thrown in somebody with a "ME ME ME" shovel comes along and throws the dirt back out.

:banghead:

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Task Force 16 wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

Task Force 16 wrote:

Big Gay Al wrote:

Yes, trespassing is sort of confusing. You can put up "No Trespassing" signs, yet it still only seems to have effect when you actually tell some one "GET OFF my property."

Strange.

Click to expand...

Personally, I don't see any confusion. It's a matter of respecting the rights of others, even when we may not agree with it.

Click to expand...

And here we come full circle. What about MY rights? When a business posts against lawful self-defense, what about MY rights?

And for the record, I generally do not enter a business that has posted no guns signs. Except maybe long enough to hand over a "No Guns=No $" card, to let them know they lost money with that sign.

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What about your rights? Has your right to carry a firearm for self defense been taken away? Only if you choose to leave your handgun in the car and do business with the store that bans firearms on the premises. But you don't have to do business with them, you can take you business somewhere else that does not ban firearms.

You see, nothing has been taken from you, unless you choose to give it up temporarily, to comply with the posted stores "No Firearms" policy.

In time, these businesses that bar guns from their premises may learn a hard lesson from their decission. When they start being the primary target for violant crimes, while other businesses that do not bar firearms go relatively unscathed, the public will become afraid to pratonize these "gun free zones". They'll either have to change their policy or possibly go out of business.

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Ok, I'm lost now.