Reloads for self defense in Arizona

gamestalker · Sep 20, 2008

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From a legal stand point, and I must add that I am in no way a qualified adviser in this area of the subject matter and thus ask that no individual take my advice and use their own common sense to conclude. However, with that said I have researched cases nation wide and extensively in Arizona and can find absolutely no case in which a self defense case was lost due to the reload used being of the most possible configuration of components available. If an individual in this state is posing a life threatening or serious bodily injury circumstance, or the potential victim is elderly, disabled or in some way diminished capacity to defend with equal force they have the legal right to use deadly force of epic proportion meaning what ever will do the most damage or impose the maximum obtainable deadly force they can. We are not asked to try and diminish the weapons potential in order to hope and stop such assault by minimal means as that could lead to failure to prevent death or serious or life threatening injury to the victim. Shooting to kill is OK and isn't considered excessive in any circumstance that posses a reasonable deadly threat to us or another individual. Again I'm only giving my interpretation of the laws and not direst quote or legal jargon interpretations to be considered official or fact, my opinion and interpretation is all this represents!

gamestalker

gamestalker · Sep 21, 2008

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It would be difficult at best to identify a reload, especially after it's been fired. If your using sayWinchester brass, and say a Winchester primer, I can't imagine how anyone could or would come to a conclusion that a reload was used.I load the same quality bullet as any other factory top of the line product. The only real difference between a reload and factory is the type and amount of powder used. After the round is discharged most all evidence of being resized is gone due to the pressures expanding the brass back out against the chamber wall. And if your using a carbide die the evidence of resizing is very minimal and actually has almost a polished look to it.And if the brass is tumbled before loading it then it is not identifiable without some serious magnified close inspection, maybe. If I handed a just fired factorybrass and a reloaded just fired brass to anyone they would not know the difference, and it would be even more difficult if fired out of an auto loader firearm rather than a revolver.I like to load Gold Dot in my handgun for self defense and that is a factory available round, nothing unusual to indicate it's a reload, except for the slight increase in velocity of about 400 fps or so, ha! ha! But it is nearly impossible to accurately calculate the velocity of a projectile.

The Gold Dot begins its expansion upon leaving the cartridge and rapidly expands after leaving the barrel which is how it is designed and would make it very difficult to determine velocity by it's physical condition after impact. And interesting experiment I learned from a web site. Shoot a standard hollow point of any make through a wet piece of note book paper hanging freely and then have another piece of regular dry paper a foot or so behind it. You will find little or no difference in the diameter of the hole on the second paper. But do that with a Gold Dot and you will see that after going through the first piece of wet paper that the hole in the second piece of paper is massive in diameter! Even better is the lead core in the Gold Dot is a bonded core and won't separate even when impacting a good solid object like a chunk frozen hamburger or 2 liter soda bottles filled with water. I've tried all the good stuff out there and most of it is excellent in performance, but Gold Dot is it, it is the best performing projectile made in my opinion. I really like the Barnes products, but they have a little to much controlled expansion, good penetration though. But as with all choices they are contingent on your intended use. I'm certainly not going to use a Gold Dot if I'm taking the weapon as a back up while hunting and may encounter bear or some other large deadly animal, right! that is when the Barnes will have it's place and righteously so.The Gold Dot having such a well bonded core still delivers good penetration despiteextreme expansion produced.

Hey, sorry for the SA style comment, I like to write as most of you can tell. I'm not really exceptional at it either, I just like to write. I should probably write a book or something. I'm thinking something on shooting, hunting, outdoors, self defense choices, or a book about how anyone, no matter how ill informed, or talented, such as myself, can write a book that will be in no way interesting, or educational, and anyone who reads it will be dumber just for having done so! I'm an idiot. See ya!

gamestalker

Gentleman Ranker · Sep 21, 2008

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About ten years ago when I had LEXIS access, I did a similar sort of search and came up with nothing. I have seen references to a more recent case where, though it was not reported as part of the decision, the attorney had made an emotional argument about the ammunition the defendant (who was convicted, btw) used. I don't have that information to hand any longer but I'll try to find it if anyone likes.

I recently asked a similar question over at SIGForum, and got similar answers, though the point of reference was Virginia.

I don't doubt that a prosecutor could go after you for nearly anything that wasn't outright prohibited by the local rules of procedure, but a good defense attorney should be able to counter anything that isn't actually part of the law ... and as far as I can determine, the law is silent as to the question of ammunition.

Proof that I am wrong is welcome. Really. If I'm wrong about this I want to know.

regards,

GR

gamestalker · Sep 21, 2008

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Hey GR, it's the open door policy that we exercise that educates us in matters we would other wise not have discussed in depth. I welcome, as you do, any information that challenges my opinion, or would befacts. But for the record, I don't have an argument on your findings and thank you for the information provided.

gamestalker

Hammer · Sep 21, 2008

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gamestalker wrote:

It would be difficult at best to identify a reload, especially after it's been fired. If your using sayWinchester brass, and say a Winchester primer, I can't imagine how anyone could or would come to a conclusion that a reload was used.I load the same quality bullet as any other factory top of the line product. The only real difference between a reload and factory is the type and amount of powder used. After the round is discharged most all evidence of being resized is gone due to the pressures expanding the brass back out against the chamber wall. And if your using a carbide die the evidence of resizing is very minimal and actually has almost a polished look to it.And if the brass is tumbled before loading it then it is not identifiable without some serious magnified close inspection, maybe. If I handed a just fired factorybrass and a reloaded just fired brass to anyone they would not know the difference, and it would be even more difficult if fired out of an auto loader firearm rather than a revolver.I like to load Gold Dot in my handgun for self defense and that is a factory available round, nothing unusual to indicate it's a reload, except for the slight increase in velocity of about 400 fps or so, ha! ha! But it is nearly impossible to accurately calculate the velocity of a projectile.

The Gold Dot begins its expansion upon leaving the cartridge and rapidly expands after leaving the barrel which is how it is designed and would make it very difficult to determine velocity by it's physical condition after impact. And interesting experiment I learned from a web site. Shoot a standard hollow point of any make through a wet piece of note book paper hanging freely and then have another piece of regular dry paper a foot or so behind it. You will find little or no difference in the diameter of the hole on the second paper. But do that with a Gold Dot and you will see that after going through the first piece of wet paper that the hole in the second piece of paper is massive in diameter! Even better is the lead core in the Gold Dot is a bonded core and won't separate even when impacting a good solid object like a chunk frozen hamburger or 2 liter soda bottles filled with water. I've tried all the good stuff out there and most of it is excellent in performance, but Gold Dot is it, it is the best performing projectile made in my opinion. I really like the Barnes products, but they have a little to much controlled expansion, good penetration though. But as with all choices they are contingent on your intended use. I'm certainly not going to use a Gold Dot if I'm taking the weapon as a back up while hunting and may encounter bear or some other large deadly animal, right! that is when the Barnes will have it's place and righteously so.The Gold Dot having such a well bonded core still delivers good penetration despiteextreme expansion produced.

Hey, sorry for the SA style comment, I like to write as most of you can tell. I'm not really exceptional at it either, I just like to write. I should probably write a book or something. I'm thinking something on shooting, hunting, outdoors, self defense choices, or a book about how anyone, no matter how ill informed, or talented, such as myself, can write a book that will be in no way interesting, or educational, and anyone who reads it will be dumber just for having done so! I'm an idiot. See ya!

gamestalker

My personal opinion is as yours.
Let me play devil's advocate for a bit.
I use Starline brass and Hornady HPs. Now it's real easy to determine that it's a reload.
As to calculating the velocity of a projectile, it should be simple to estimate it, if it were used in a defense that resulted in a wound channel.
I think the best thing to do if you're going to use reloads is MAKE SURE they are as reliable as possible.
I also don't reload for "self-defense". I reload for defense against wild animals in the woods. The same loads happen to come along on other days.....

gamestalker · Sep 21, 2008

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10-4 on that! Ifyou load for something as specific as protection while in the woods it is more than difficult make allegations of excessive force.

And I know there is a science to determining velocity, but if for instance, your using a quick expanding projectile, such as the Gold Dot, it will greatly alter the formula that would other wise get pretty close. I find that to be evident when using the frozen hamburger, and some ballistic gel,a chronograph, and several different reloads with results drastically different, despite close similarities in velocity. But in general it would be something under fairly common circumstances that could be determined with some reasonable accuracy.
gamestalker

Gentleman Ranker · Sep 22, 2008

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Wasn't casting a gauntlet at you, gamestalker; apologies if it came across that way. The statement about proving me wrong was directed towards the forum in general, and entirely serious.

Do you have any observations regarding Gold Dot v. Federal HST? From the test results I've seen, Gold Dot is somewhat better on barriers and auto glass, but HST has better expansion on what we might call "soft targets".

Shot placement is most important of course (if I don't say it someone else will

), and both GD and HST seem to be outstanding performers, but I wonder if HST has at least a theoretical edge for civilian self-defense situations.

I doubt someone could go wrong either way, but one likes to eke out that little extra bit of efficiency when possible.

regards,

GR

Reloads for self defense in Arizona

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