dupree187
Regular Member
imported post
Just looking for some opinions on this, pro's and con's to different calibers.
Just looking for some opinions on this, pro's and con's to different calibers.
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What Caliber?
- Thread starter dupree187
- Start date
Ohio Patriot
Regular Member
imported post
9 mm.
Reason being...
The most important variable in stopping power is shot placement. For the most part, shot placement is more important than muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, and bullet diameter.
Shot placement can only be improved via training. The more training you have with your weapon, the more accurate your shot placement will be, and the better the stopping power will be.
For most people, the amount of time training with their weapon is inversely proportional to the price of the ammunition. The more expensive their ammo is, the less they tend to train with it, and hence the less effective they will be with it. This simple concept is lost in may discussions on caliber and stopping power.
A 45 ACP, for example, might have an edge on inherent "stopping power" by virtue of its large diameter, but this edge is usually negated by insufficient training time due to the high cost of ammo. On the other end of the spectrum is the 22LR... it's cheap enough that a person can practice with it a lot, but it falls way short in the "inherent stopping power" category.
So... very small caliber is bad (e.g. 22LR) because it can't incapacitate a bad guy in a short period of time. Large caliber (e.g. 45 ACP) is usually bad because you probably won't practice with it enough due to the high cost of ammo. For most people, then, a medium caliber is best. The 9 mm is such a caliber. It is cheap enough that I can practice with it on a regular basis, and powerful enough that it can incapacitate a bad guy in a relatively short period of time (assuming good shot placement, which is achieved via training).
Now, having said ALL of that, it should be mentioned that bullet diameter is not the most important "inherent" variable when it comes to handgun rounds (when comparing commonly-available rounds). Depth of penetration is the most important variable. Bullet diameter is a close second.
9 mm.
Reason being...
The most important variable in stopping power is shot placement. For the most part, shot placement is more important than muzzle velocity, ballistic coefficient, and bullet diameter.
Shot placement can only be improved via training. The more training you have with your weapon, the more accurate your shot placement will be, and the better the stopping power will be.
For most people, the amount of time training with their weapon is inversely proportional to the price of the ammunition. The more expensive their ammo is, the less they tend to train with it, and hence the less effective they will be with it. This simple concept is lost in may discussions on caliber and stopping power.
A 45 ACP, for example, might have an edge on inherent "stopping power" by virtue of its large diameter, but this edge is usually negated by insufficient training time due to the high cost of ammo. On the other end of the spectrum is the 22LR... it's cheap enough that a person can practice with it a lot, but it falls way short in the "inherent stopping power" category.
So... very small caliber is bad (e.g. 22LR) because it can't incapacitate a bad guy in a short period of time. Large caliber (e.g. 45 ACP) is usually bad because you probably won't practice with it enough due to the high cost of ammo. For most people, then, a medium caliber is best. The 9 mm is such a caliber. It is cheap enough that I can practice with it on a regular basis, and powerful enough that it can incapacitate a bad guy in a relatively short period of time (assuming good shot placement, which is achieved via training).
Now, having said ALL of that, it should be mentioned that bullet diameter is not the most important "inherent" variable when it comes to handgun rounds (when comparing commonly-available rounds). Depth of penetration is the most important variable. Bullet diameter is a close second.
Bookman
Campaign Veteran
imported post
I use a .40 cal for most of the reasons listed by Ohio Patriot. I wanted to fire affordable ammo with a large enough bullet to have a chance of stopping things quickly. I also wanted a pistol, instead of a revolver because they're usually easier to conceal when the situation calls for it.
9mm's are very popular because of their high mag capacity, and that's important. Studies have shown, though, that a 9mm doesn't quiiiiiiite measure up in stopping power.
That's why someone invented the 10mm. That gives us a high mag capacity AND stopping power. Good things, right? WELLLLLL, it seems the 10mm had TOO much power. It had a tendency to go all the way through bodies and walls and hit people in other rooms. Not good.
SO someone good a bright idea. They cut down the cartridge, used less powder, and called it a .40 caliber. It's exactly the same diameter as a 10mm, but with slightly less terminal velocity, which gives it even MORE stopping power. It also allows us to keep our high capacity mags. Essentially, it's a good compromise between a 9mm and a .45.
I use a .40 cal for most of the reasons listed by Ohio Patriot. I wanted to fire affordable ammo with a large enough bullet to have a chance of stopping things quickly. I also wanted a pistol, instead of a revolver because they're usually easier to conceal when the situation calls for it.
9mm's are very popular because of their high mag capacity, and that's important. Studies have shown, though, that a 9mm doesn't quiiiiiiite measure up in stopping power.
That's why someone invented the 10mm. That gives us a high mag capacity AND stopping power. Good things, right? WELLLLLL, it seems the 10mm had TOO much power. It had a tendency to go all the way through bodies and walls and hit people in other rooms. Not good.
SO someone good a bright idea. They cut down the cartridge, used less powder, and called it a .40 caliber. It's exactly the same diameter as a 10mm, but with slightly less terminal velocity, which gives it even MORE stopping power. It also allows us to keep our high capacity mags. Essentially, it's a good compromise between a 9mm and a .45.
Michigander
Regular Member
imported post
I say take your pick, and reload so as not to worry about cost.
I say take your pick, and reload so as not to worry about cost.
MamaLiberty
Regular Member
imported post
The most intelligent way to practice is called dry fire. It is not necessary to fire a live cartridge to develop the skills necessary for good shot placement. An airsoft with a laser sight is an incredible trainer.
It takes about 300 repetitions of a nearly PERFECT movement (or combination) to create a muscle memory habit. It takes nearly 10,000 repetitions to UNLEARN that habit.
Learn the skills in dry fire, then confirm and cement it at the range with live fire. After that, alternate the two to keep sharp.
Caliber and cartridge should be matched to the result desired... not just your budget.
The most intelligent way to practice is called dry fire. It is not necessary to fire a live cartridge to develop the skills necessary for good shot placement. An airsoft with a laser sight is an incredible trainer.
It takes about 300 repetitions of a nearly PERFECT movement (or combination) to create a muscle memory habit. It takes nearly 10,000 repetitions to UNLEARN that habit.
Learn the skills in dry fire, then confirm and cement it at the range with live fire. After that, alternate the two to keep sharp.
Caliber and cartridge should be matched to the result desired... not just your budget.
Doug Huffman
Banned
imported post
EFMJ .40 & .45 9 mm ball
EFMJ .40 & .45 9 mm ball
Nelson_Muntz
Campaign Veteran
imported post
Ohio Patriot wrote:
Ohio Patriot wrote:
How do you feel about using a conversion kit for 22 at the practice range with your carry gun?
yeahYeah
Regular Member
imported post
i carry a 9mm and will stay in this caliber... it's affordable and hard hitting. best bang for the buck.
i carry a 9mm and will stay in this caliber... it's affordable and hard hitting. best bang for the buck.
M
mdgary
Guest
imported post
I carry .40 cal hunting and fishing and 9mm compact forpersonal protection That's how I roll
I carry .40 cal hunting and fishing and 9mm compact forpersonal protection That's how I roll
FogRider
Regular Member
imported post
.45 most of the time, .357 on occasion.
.45 most of the time, .357 on occasion.
mp3mogul
Regular Member
imported post
The answer should be:
Whatever you are comfortable shooting and carry 100% without fail.
My personal? Either my .45 or my .40 depending on what I'm wearing for the day as the .40 is a bit easier to conceal.
The answer should be:
Whatever you are comfortable shooting and carry 100% without fail.
My personal? Either my .45 or my .40 depending on what I'm wearing for the day as the .40 is a bit easier to conceal.
G
Gentleman Ranker
Guest
imported post
The conventional wisdom for this question ... with which I agree ... is something along the lines of "the most effective self-defense cartridge that you can shoot accurately."
Accuracy should not be sacrificed ... to any significant degree ... for more power.
Of course, "effective" and "power" are debated endlessly. Go to the appropriate section of any forum with discussions about self-defense firearms and you'll find such a debate shortly.
In my case, I chose .40 S&W. My reasoning was (and is):
1. Many (a majority of?) US police departments have been using it for some years now. Police departments often choose things based on budget, politics, or factors not relevant to civilians, but if .40 just wasn't doing the job, I suspect it would have been noticed by now.
2. A wide variety of high-quality self-defense/LE ammunition is available for it.
3. I shoot it reasonably well (which is not to say that I don't need improvement).
I've been shooting Speer Gold Dot, but I'm about to start trying Federal HST, based on tests I've seen. But that's another discussion.
Other choices can be just as good for those who use them as .40 is for me. Let everyone be convinced in their own mind ... so long as you can shoot straight with <whatever> .
regards,
GR
The conventional wisdom for this question ... with which I agree ... is something along the lines of "the most effective self-defense cartridge that you can shoot accurately."
Accuracy should not be sacrificed ... to any significant degree ... for more power.
Of course, "effective" and "power" are debated endlessly. Go to the appropriate section of any forum with discussions about self-defense firearms and you'll find such a debate shortly.
In my case, I chose .40 S&W. My reasoning was (and is):
1. Many (a majority of?) US police departments have been using it for some years now. Police departments often choose things based on budget, politics, or factors not relevant to civilians, but if .40 just wasn't doing the job, I suspect it would have been noticed by now.
2. A wide variety of high-quality self-defense/LE ammunition is available for it.
3. I shoot it reasonably well (which is not to say that I don't need improvement).
I've been shooting Speer Gold Dot, but I'm about to start trying Federal HST, based on tests I've seen. But that's another discussion.
Other choices can be just as good for those who use them as .40 is for me. Let everyone be convinced in their own mind ... so long as you can shoot straight with <whatever> .
regards,
GR
TipsyMcStagger
Banned
imported post
45ACP
no matter what anyone says about 9mm, they have in a large number of cases failed to stop someone, they be hyped up on crack or not.
hardly anyone survives a 45 to the chest for any measurable amount of time, no matter what drugs they are on.
i've only heard of one case where someone who was stoned walked through two 45s to the chest, but they basically died standing up in about 30 seconds, but still were attacking for those 30 seconds.
i'd still carry a 9mm because like others have said you can negate "stopping power" with shot placement, but in some situations you might not have the luxury of placing a shot to the dome.
besides how many BG (in their right mind) want to continue an attacking looking down the barrel of a 45
ps: i often carry a beretta bobcat 22LR just because its so small, and have owned and carried 9mm, and 40 s&w
45ACP
no matter what anyone says about 9mm, they have in a large number of cases failed to stop someone, they be hyped up on crack or not.
hardly anyone survives a 45 to the chest for any measurable amount of time, no matter what drugs they are on.
i've only heard of one case where someone who was stoned walked through two 45s to the chest, but they basically died standing up in about 30 seconds, but still were attacking for those 30 seconds.
i'd still carry a 9mm because like others have said you can negate "stopping power" with shot placement, but in some situations you might not have the luxury of placing a shot to the dome.
besides how many BG (in their right mind) want to continue an attacking looking down the barrel of a 45
ps: i often carry a beretta bobcat 22LR just because its so small, and have owned and carried 9mm, and 40 s&w
Walleye
Regular Member
imported post
9mm, because that's all I've got & all I can afford.
9mm, because that's all I've got & all I can afford.
ODA 226
Regular Member
imported post
.45 ACP. Big bullet+good shot placement= End of troubles.
.45 ACP. Big bullet+good shot placement= End of troubles.
AWDstylez
Banned
imported post
All the .45 guys know that that extra 1ft/lbs of muzzle energy makes all the difference. :quirky
I carry 9mm now andplan to get a5.7x28 next summer. Reason being is that, as already mentioned, it's all about shot placement. The low recoiling 9mm will let me put 2-3 holes in your head while you're still trying to regain a sight picture from the excessive recoil of your .45, with which you missed your first shot because you couldn't afford enough ammo to practice regularly. Move on tothe 5.7 and it's game over because thanks to the near zero recoil, I'll be able to emptyan entire magazine of bullets with the same muzzle energy as a 9mm +pinto a 1" diameter spot before you even squeeze off a single shot.
Bottle line, it's all about shot placement and follow-up shot placement. The difference between a .45 ACP at 400ft/lbs and a 9mm standard pressure at 380ft/lbs is a joke when you're looking at more like 1,000+ft/lbs for a true one shot stop.
All the .45 guys know that that extra 1ft/lbs of muzzle energy makes all the difference. :quirky
I carry 9mm now andplan to get a5.7x28 next summer. Reason being is that, as already mentioned, it's all about shot placement. The low recoiling 9mm will let me put 2-3 holes in your head while you're still trying to regain a sight picture from the excessive recoil of your .45, with which you missed your first shot because you couldn't afford enough ammo to practice regularly. Move on tothe 5.7 and it's game over because thanks to the near zero recoil, I'll be able to emptyan entire magazine of bullets with the same muzzle energy as a 9mm +pinto a 1" diameter spot before you even squeeze off a single shot.
Bottle line, it's all about shot placement and follow-up shot placement. The difference between a .45 ACP at 400ft/lbs and a 9mm standard pressure at 380ft/lbs is a joke when you're looking at more like 1,000+ft/lbs for a true one shot stop.
TipsyMcStagger
Banned
imported post
AWDstylez wrote:
maybe little stick figures can't shoot a 45.
45ACP does not recoil that much in the hands of a man maybe a woman or a little boy... cough cough....
its been proven over and over again the 9mm can't do the job like a bigger round.
AWDstylez wrote:
wow.
maybe little stick figures can't shoot a 45.
45ACP does not recoil that much in the hands of a man maybe a woman or a little boy... cough cough....
its been proven over and over again the 9mm can't do the job like a bigger round.
M
mdgary
Guest
imported post
TipsyMcStagger wrote:
TipsyMcStagger wrote:
I shoot A 9mm with A 12 rd. mag. and 1 in the pipe,I don't plan to stop shooting till the threat is ELIMINATED.Put enough holes in the BG and they can,t plug them all!