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Thread: The "1000" foot rule for schools

  1. #1
    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I have read some of the various code items regarding this subject and I have to admit, there is still confusion on my part. I know that I can carry a concealed firearm onto school property while remaining in my vehicle providing I possess a valid permit. However, my question is for open carry.

    Can a person walk (or drive or ride) past a school that is in session while open carrying a handgun in Virginia? An excellent example might be one who walks his dog on the sidewalk and strolls past a school. Is this legal and is he free to do this?

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    If he has a CHP is my understanding.

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    You can walk by the school armed as long as you are not on the property.

    The 1000 foot rules comes into play when you commit a crime like brandishing. This makes the minor crime far worse.

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    CRF250rider1000 wrote:
    If he has a CHP is my understanding.
    18 USC 922 (q) is the federal law that pertains. You have to have a license to carry a firearm, and that license must be issued from the state where the school resides.

    2 b ii:
    There is an exception for a few things and one of them:
    "if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located ...."

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    You can walk by the school armed as long as you are not on the property.

    The 1000 foot rules comes into play when you commit a crime like brandishing. This makes the minor crime far worse.
    How do you figure? The GFSZA says:
    "It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. "

    Not brandish, just possessing is unlawful. I realize that no one has been prosecuted for just walking by a school with a gun, but that doesn't make it legal.

    "School zone" is defined as
    " in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school."


    ***edited to add***
    School zone definition can be found at:
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...1----000-.html


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    mkl wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You can walk by the school armed as long as you are not on the property.

    The 1000 foot rules comes into play when you commit a crime like brandishing. This makes the minor crime far worse.
    How do you figure? The GFSZA says:
    "It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. "

    Not brandish, just possessing is unlawful. I realize that no one has been prosecuted for just walking by a school with a gun, but that doesn't make it legal.

    "School zone" is defined as
    " in, or on the grounds of, a public, parochial or private school; or within a distance of 1,000 feet from the grounds of a public, parochial or private school."


    ***edited to add***
    School zone definition can be found at:
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/h...1----000-.html
    I do not claim to knowUS code since I have my hands full already keeping up with VA code.

    I am going to HIGHLY doubt that any LEO in Virginia is going to try to charge you federally for OCing a gun while walking past a school. They would most likely NOT get any cooperation from a federal prosecutor who would be laughing as they hung up the phone.

    Virginia has their own code on the distance and how it should be handled. You can see it does involve a crime before it is used.

    ┬ž 18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.

    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense.

    Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I do not claim to know┬*US code since I have my hands full already keeping up with VA code.

    I am going to HIGHLY doubt that any LEO in Virginia is going to try to charge you federally for OCing a gun while walking past a school. They would most likely NOT get any cooperation from a federal prosecutor who would be laughing as they hung up the phone.
    That's fine. However, it is still illegal, and if someone is asking if it is legal to carry a gun on the sidewalk outside of a school, the answer is "Unless you meet one of the exceptions laid out in the federal code, it is ILLEGAL to have a gun within 1000 feet of a school".

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    Its one of those laws that is casually enforced, if at all. These kinds of laws should not exist. Either it's enforced, or it is not law.

    Since when did the govt ever make sense, though with its enforcement of laws...

    What 229 said is correct though from what I've heard as well. It was brought up back at the June VCDL meeting in Annandale and it was brought to the attention of the VCDL president that the meeting location was within 1000 feet of a school. It was then said that while the law exists, in practice it is only just tacked on as another charge when a perp is already going down.

    But I still hold my opinion that laws like this should not exist...

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    OK...here's what the VCDL says on the issue:
    When CHP holders, who are statutorily exempt from the GFSZA, carry openly, they should be aware that the GFSZA forbids carrying guns in the school zone. There is an exemption to the act for permit holders, but exemptions must be proven by the person so exempted.

    A police officer seeing someone carrying in the zone has a prima facie case and probable cause for arrest. He may approach and challenge you and unless you display your permit the officer may arrest you.

    Therefore, anyone carrying within the 1,000 feet limits of a school as defined by the GFSZA should be advised to carry their CHP with them at all times and produce it upon demand.


    http://www.vcdl.org/new/fallschurch.html

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    mkl wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You can walk by the school armed as long as you are not on the property.

    The 1000 foot rules comes into play when you commit a crime like brandishing. This makes the minor crime far worse.
    How do you figure? The GFSZA says:
    "It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. "

    snip/bold
    I don't see how a OC'er is affecting commerce (JMHO).
    I OC all the time near schools, not once hasa LEO asked fora permit or made an issue becauseI was carrying.
    If you think like a Statist, act like one, or back some, you've given up on freedom and have gone over to the dark side.
    The easiest ex. but probably the most difficult to grasp for gun owners is that fool permission slip so many of you have, especially if you show it off with pride. You should recognize it as an embarrassment, an infringement, a travesty and an affront to a free person.


    ~Alan Korwin

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    Agent19 wrote:
    mkl wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    You can walk by the school armed as long as you are not on the property.

    The 1000 foot rules comes into play when you commit a crime like brandishing. This makes the minor crime far worse.
    How do you figure? The GFSZA says:
    "It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone. "

    snip/bold
    I don't see how a OC'er is affecting commerce (JMHO).
    I OC all the time near schools, not once hasa LEO asked fora permit or made an issue becauseI was carrying.
    Why is there a meaningless law on the books, or a law that the police will not enforce? See, the right to open carry is being eroded by layer upon layer upon layer of additional rules. The goal of anti-gun advocates isn't to ban guns -- they know they can't do that. The goal is to make guns too much of a hassle to carry. The front door to my abode is less than 1,000 feet from public school property, so I cannot legally carry a gun out my front door.



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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Thanks LEO 229 for your comments on this. mkl of Arlington seems to have a somewhat different take on the matter which, if true, would put a good deal of us in jeopardy.

    For example. I live within 1000 feet of a school as do many of us, I'm sure. If the 1000 foot rule was in fact true, then me, or one of my close neighbors who decide to take an evening walk in the neighborhood (out of sight but within 1000 feet of the school) could be opening themselves up to arrest. Or if I decide to take a walk around the development and the walk take me past the school across the highway, then I too would be opening up myself to legal difficulties.

    This all sounds a bit nuts because if it is true, then technically, as I drive by this or any school, I would be breaking the law since my weapon is in a location close to my hand in my car.

    I understand where brandishing would be cause for concern, but this activity would get you in trouble regardless of whether or not a school was close by.

    Still see a bit of confusion with all of this.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    Still see a bit of confusion with all of this.
    I don't see what the confusion is. If you are within 1000 feet of a school and do not meet the exceptions you are breaking the law.

    There are exceptions for permit holders from the state the school is in, being on private property, having the gun unloaded and locked in a container, unloaded and in a gun rack in a car, unloaded and needed to go by the school for hunting, a cop, has permission from the school.

    This law is fairly easy to read and clear (unlike a lot of laws).
    The only confusion, is that they don't seem to currently being enforcing it. However, the way I see it, this isn't one of those laws from 1823 where you can't walk a duck down the street that noone remembers, this was passed in 1990, went to the supreme court in 1995, it lost, then was rewritten to possible be constitutional. I still think it isn't constitutional, but that hasn't been tested by the courts. I believe eventually this law will be used. Maybe it will be used to harass an open carrier who doesn't have a permit, or maybe someone like danbus that the police are already mad at.

    If you want to trust the fact that "no one has been arrested for it....yet" means "we aren't going to ever arrest you for it", that is fine by me, but don't forget the fact that it is illegal.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    mkl wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    I do not claim to knowUS code since I have my hands full already keeping up with VA code.

    I am going to HIGHLY doubt that any LEO in Virginia is going to try to charge you federally for OCing a gun while walking past a school. They would most likely NOT get any cooperation from a federal prosecutor who would be laughing as they hung up the phone.
    That's fine. However, it is still illegal, and if someone is asking if it is legal to carry a gun on the sidewalk outside of a school, the answer is "Unless you meet one of the exceptions laid out in the federal code, it is ILLEGAL to have a gun within 1000 feet of a school".
    This cannot be the case in purity because if it was, then by law no one could possess a firearm even within their own homes if they are within 1000 feet of a school. So we know there are limitations and exceptions here.

    Also if the law was factual, then suppose this. Say the 1000 foot limit reached through your kitchen and your living room was outside of this distance. Then you could keep, carry, and handle the weapon in the living room but not the kitchen.

    We all know this is silly and not something with which to concern ourselves. But the fact remains that if the law exists, then it can be abused. If it doesn't, then all is well. And there are contradictions, too. One is free to handle, carry, and own a weapon on their own curtilage in Virginia even if that property is right across the street or next door to a school. You can carry your firearm while you mow your lawn or wash your car and there's not a thing the law can do about this (as I understand it).

    Now one more question I have from reading some of the responses here.

    It seems some have said that you can only open carry a firearm as you walk within 1000 feet of a school IF you have a valid concealed carry permit. But in Virginia, no permit is required to carry a firearm openly. So which is it?

    I should add that the fact that there are differences in interpretation and opinions only underlines the fact that there is confusion with all of this, so I am not alone with my concerns. All I am trying to do is to make sure that I, other members of this site, have the facts at hand and some basis in knowledge with this.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Agent19 wrote:
    snip/bold
    I don't see how a OC'er is affecting commerce (JMHO).
    The commerce clause was added to give congress jurisdiction. The theory is that "that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce" has suggested to be translated as "we have jurisdiction if the firearm has moved in or otherwise affected interstate commerce." So basically they are making the case that if your gun was ever moved interstate, or sold between one state and another, they have jurisdiction. I would have to say most guns have at one time or another moved between one state and another, so they think they have jurisdiction.
    If you want to see an article about the commerce clause and how congress uses it all the time to regulate things they basically have no jurisdiction otherwise over, see:
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/anncon/h...ag47_user.html
    http://www.law.duke.edu/shell/cite.pl?50+Duke+L.+J.+637

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    To mkl;

    I used to live in Arlington; in Boulevard Manor of of Wilson Blvd on North Manchester Street to be precise. My house was within 1000 feet and line of sight of Ashlawn Elementary school. Because of the size of Arlington (it is the smallest county in the state), I would wager that perhaps many, if not most, of the homes in the country are within 1000 feet of a school. This could make one's life rather miserable if this law was enforced, I should think.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    "This cannot be the case in purity because if it was, then by law no one could possess a firearm even within their own homes if they are within 1000 feet of a school. So we know there are limitations and exceptions here."

    There is an exception in the law for "Private property". So it would not be illegal in your own home.

    "Also if the law was factual, then suppose this. Say the 1000 foot limit reached through your kitchen and your living room was outside of this distance. Then you could keep, carry, and handle the weapon in the living room but not the kitchen."

    Again, this is not an issue due to the exception for private property.




    "It seems some have said that you can only open carry a firearm as you walk within 1000 feet of a school IF you have a valid concealed carry permit. But in Virginia, no permit is required to carry a firearm openly. So which is it?"

    This is a federal law. So Virginia may not require a license, but this FEDERAL law does. So if you are OCing on the public side walk in front of the school, with no license, it is illegal. There is no gray area here in the law.


    "I should add that the fact that there are differences in interpretation and opinions only underlines the fact that there is confusion with all of this, so I am not alone with my concerns. All I am trying to do is to make sure that I, other members of this site, have the facts at hand and some basis in knowledge with this."

    t. I agree, same here. I want to make sure that members know it IS ILLEGAL so they don't go arguing with a cop that they "know the law", when they will be wrong. Now, the chances are very low that it will affect you, so I am not saying freak out and stop carrying, but if a cop stops you, and you try to argue it is not illegal, you are going to have egg on your face. Know the laws, use that knowledge however you will. But don't try and pretend the laws don't exist because no one seems to be enforcing it.

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    SouthernBoy wrote:
    To mkl;

    I used to live in Arlington; in Boulevard Manor of of Wilson Blvd on North Manchester Street to be precise. My house was within 1000 feet and line of sight of Ashlawn Elementary school. Because of the size of Arlington (it is the smallest county in the state), I would wager that perhaps many, if not most, of the homes in the country are within 1000 feet of a school. This could make one's life rather miserable if this law was enforced, I should think.
    I am not arguing that this is a good law, or that I want it enforced, quite the opposite. This law is insane. I believe it may not hold up to a supreme court challenge. But putting your head in the sand and saying "this law isn't really a law, cause they aren't using it", is just kidding yourself.

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    mkl wrote:
    SouthernBoy wrote:
    To mkl;

    I used to live in Arlington; in Boulevard Manor of of Wilson Blvd on North Manchester Street to be precise. My house was within 1000 feet and line of sight of Ashlawn Elementary school. Because of the size of Arlington (it is the smallest county in the state), I would wager that perhaps many, if not most, of the homes in the country are within 1000 feet of a school. This could make one's life rather miserable if this law was enforced, I should think.
    I am not arguing that this is a good law, or that I want it enforced, quite the opposite. This law is insane. I believe it may not hold up to a supreme court challenge. But putting your head in the sand and saying "this law isn't really a law, cause they aren't using it", is just kidding yourself.
    It's a good point. While it may not be enforced much now, it could very well be at some time in the future. Look At Project EXILE in Richmond.

    The idea is to let the FEDS get quote"Illegal guns" when the state can't or won't.

    Honestly, I'm amazed that some of the areas in Varyland haven't started doing it.

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    Last night before bed I thought about homes next to the school.

    If this US Law was applied to every situation it would effectively disarm everyone including those in their own homes. There is NO exclusions that I could see.

    But what it all comes down to is the application and use.

    The feds are NOT going to bother taking this to court if you have not broken some other law that makes it worthy.

    The same goes for the wearing a mask in public in Virginia. Sure... you cannot wear one but how many cops are going to lock you up for wearing a mask while you shovel the snow???

    The purpose is to nail those that wear a mark and commit a crime. The school distance is the same thing. It just gives leverage to an existing crime.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Last night before bed I thought about homes next to the school.

    If this US Law was applied to every situation it would effectively disarm everyone including those in their own homes. There is NO exclusions that I could see.

    But what it all comes down to is the application and use.

    The feds are NOT going to bother taking this to court if you have not broken some other law that makes it worthy.

    The same goes for the wearing a mask in public in Virginia. Sure... you cannot wear one but how many cops are going to lock you up for wearing a mask while you shovel the snow???

    The purpose is to nail those that wear a mark and commit a crime. The school distance is the same thing. It just gives leverage to an existing crime.
    Many departments do go after trivial things like the mask law 229. Sometimes it's just bad blood, sometimes, bad cops. Thankfully the mask law has gone through the appellate courts (I don't have the cite right now) and pretty much gutted it. It is now illegal to wear a mask with "The intent to deceive".

    The officer has to prove intent.

    The 1000 foot law is still the law. To say, It's OK, the police will use good judgment is like putting money in a bank owned by the Soprano's.

    WE NEED TO PUSH UNTIL IT'S CHANGED!!

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    "Last night before bed I thought about homes next to the school.
    If this US Law was applied to every situation it would effectively disarm everyone including those in their own homes. There is NO exclusions that I could see."


    Well, Let me help you with that. The exclusion you are looking for is the first one, the one that says this law does not apply on private property. See? So it does not disarm anyone in their own home. There are a list of other exclusions as well, including having a license from the state the school is in, among others.


    " It just gives leverage to an existing crime."

    Can you give me a cite where it says that? Can you give me a quote from the BATF that says that is how they consider this law? Can you give an official quote from ANY federal official or attorney general that says they will not prosecute for this crime by itself?

    No. Just because you say it, does not make it true. This is a law. It does not have any restriction about it needing to be used in conjunction with another crime.

    If you would like a letter from the BATF about this law see,
    http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

    To sum again, I do not believe the federal government is actively pursuing arresting people for breaking this law by itself. It is however still a law, and the action it defines is still illegal.
    Just because you may not get arrested and charged, does not make it legal. Carrying a gun with no permit with 1000 feet of a school without meeting any of the exceptions, IS ILLEGAL.

    I think it is strange that people think that because this law is so horrible that it effectively disarms all non-permit holders, that the law can't possibly be true. Guess what, this is a horrible law that at any time the government could start to enforce, and it will make it horrible for all gun owners. The police have probable cause to stop any carriers to check their permit anywhere within 1000 feet of a school. It is the current law. This is just laying in wait for a situation where it could be potentially used to make it extremely difficult for gun owners, until it is overturned again by the supreme court.

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    Just for more information on the topic, and because I find it interesting...

    Montana citizens don't seem to have to worry about the GFSZA, check out
    Montana code 45-8-360.
    Montana has passed a law saying that ALL people lawfully able to carry a gun are considered "licensed" for the purposes of the GFSZA...Nice work Montana.

    http://data.opi.state.mt.us/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-360.htm

    "45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act."

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    mkl wrote:
    Montana code 45-8-360.
    Montana has passed a law saying that ALL people lawfully able to carry a gun are considered "licensed" for the purposes of the GFSZA...Nice work Montana.

    http://data.opi.state.mt.us/bills/mca/45/8/45-8-360.htm
    I wonder if we could get something like that passed here?

    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    The feds are NOT going to bother taking this to court if you have not broken some other law that makes it worthy.

    The same goes for the wearing a mask in public in Virginia. Sure... you cannot wear one but how many cops are going to lock you up for wearing a mask while you shovel the snow???

    The purpose is to nail those that wear a mark and commit a crime. The school distance is the same thing. It just gives leverage to an existing crime.
    Why can't police use existing laws to enforce the law?

    It's like convicting Al Capone for tax evasion because they could not convict him for they myriad ofviolent crimes that he was alleged to have committed. At first, the tax evasion approach lookscunning. With some reflection though, it is abusive. Eventually the alcohol gangs were disbanded when the government relented and made alcohol legal again. Popular support for alcohol is what made Al Capone Al Capone. Government opposition to alcohol is what made government pervert the law to achieve its otherwise unattainable goals.

    (And I think the mask laws were enacted as anti-Klan measures, not anti-snow removal measures, but I could be mistaken given the snowfall amounts and other factors like television programmig.)




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