The "1000" foot rule for schools

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LEO 229 wrote:

matt605 wrote:

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This list of includes a lot of people for some, but how is it established in court that a person "pulled a gun" on any of them? Under these laws, what evidence is required to permanently revoke an individual's 2nd Amendment right?

:dude:

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... Normally.... people do not go out and trump up charges. So he who sounds off first is normally given a little more weight.

But sure.... your wife could say "He pointed his gun at me and cocked the hammer!!"

You are going to be in trouble!!! The judge is going to decide who he believes. All the officer does is get the two of you into court.

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After the judge makes his adverse decision based on testimony like in a dog poop case, then the suspect's 2nd Amendment right is revoked forever. Gun ownership may become forever illegal and purchasesbecome a privilege, with a lengthy, undignifiedprocess. The law applies to men and women equally though.

In a divorce situation where there are no witnesses to marital conflicts and no documented injuries -- brains splattered on home furnishings, etc., no statement can be reallyaccepted as truthful.

Yet the individual's constitutional right disappears forever.

How about assaults with firearms when they are not used as firearms -- pistol whipped with the butt of a revolver or slapped or pushed with the stock of a long gun? Each is an assault with a firearm, but not in a way that's different than a non-gun.

:dude:

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matt605 wrote:

After the judge makes his adverse decision based on testimony like in a dog poop case, then the suspect's 2nd Amendment right is revoked forever. Gun ownership may become forever illegal and purchasesbecome a privilege, with a lengthy, undignifiedprocess. The law applies to men and women equally though.

In a divorce situation where there are no witnesses to marital conflicts and no documented injuries -- brains splattered on home furnishings, etc., no statement can be reallyaccepted as truthful.

Yet the individual's constitutional right disappears forever.

How about assaults with firearms when they are not used as firearms -- pistol whipped with the butt of a revolver or slapped or pushed with the stock of a long gun? Each is an assault with a firearm, but not in a way that's different than a non-gun.

:dude:

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We are gettting a little off topic from the original post... But I fill finish this with your answer.

Not picking up after your dog is probably NOT a felony in any state. So gun ownership is not threatened.

But any felony or domestic assault conviction does threaten your ownership.

Sure... people can lie and you could could lose your rights to gun ownership.

Have I seen this happen? Possibly! I have seen family members make claims of assault I did not believe and then the family member get convicted in court. It is out of my hands at that point. I am compelled to arrest based on a "claim" of assault alone.

So the thing to remember in Virginia or any other state it applies to....

Do not EVER assault or touch a family member who is mad at you. If an argument starts... you better be running out the door or kissing their ass.

All they have to do is SAY you did it and you risk losing your firearm ownership.

OK... I think we are done here... back to schools.

I have never known a person to be arrested for having a gun near a school unless they were involved in some other criminal enterprise.

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OK.. let me stir the school pot now...

I have my VA CHP. Let's say I am carrying concealed. I drive to Bullseye Brookie's elementary school to drop her off. She gets out of the car and trips on the sidewalk and breaks her arm/leg.. and screams out for me to help her.

- I get out to help her (and break the law?) except nobody will know?

- I disarm in the car (bad idea/illegal) to handle loaded firearm in the drop off loop at an elementary school) to got out and help her.

- I drive away to the public street to disarm and RUN back to where she is (not practical) and risk the charge of leaving her abanonded on the curb (reckless endagerment)

stupid Virginia laws...

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ed wrote:

OK.. let me stir the school pot now...

I have my VA CHP. Let's say I am carrying concealed. I drive to Bullseye Brookie's elementary school to drop her off. She gets out of the car and trips on the sidewalk and breaks her arm/leg.. and screams out for me to help her.

- I get out to help her (and break the law?) except nobody will know?

- I disarm in the car (bad idea/illegal) to handle loaded firearm in the drop off loop at an elementary school) to got out and help her.

- I drive away to the public street to disarm and RUN back to where she is (not practical) and risk the charge of leaving her abanonded on the curb (reckless endagerment)

stupid Virginia laws...

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Good one Ed.

However.... Just because the law exists..... does not meanitMUST be enforced.

There is only ONE law where it clearly identifiessomeone must be arrested.And it is funny because we just talked about it above.... Domestic assault.

I see people speeding and violating traffic laws all the time but let them go. The police are still allowed to decide who should be arrested. They are expected to do what is best and are allowed to decide in all cases except Domestic assault.

So if there is a very good reasonfor why you "broke the law" it can be overlooked. I often ask this to people I catch breaking the law. There are at times some valid reasons.

And if the officer does not accept your reason.. maybe the Judge or jury will.

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Discretion - The magic word in LE. 229 is an honest man whether you always agree with him or not. The majority of LEO's I haveknown utilized discretion. I know, the critics will call it selective enforcement.

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tripledipper wrote:

Discretion - The magic word in LE. 229 is an honest man whether you always agree with him or not. The majority of LEO's I haveknown utilized discretion. I know, the critics will call it selective enforcement.

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I am sure that all the people I have let go over the years were happy I exercised some discretion....

And those that were charged.... upset to hear that some others were let go.

So it really depends on what side of the bridge you are on.

You cannot make everyone happy. :?

But for those that were in violation and not let off.... it was your own fault. You have to take responsibility for what you have done. Do not expect a free pass because some others got it.

I would say that the majority of people would choose that the officer NOT charge 100% of the time just to be consistent. They would probably prefer to take their chances and see what happens.. 50/50 chance that way.Much better than having a 0% chance of getting a warning.

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LEO 229 wrote:

matt605 wrote:

After the judge makes his adverse decision based on testimony like in a dog poop case, then the suspect's 2nd Amendment right is revoked forever. Gun ownership may become forever illegal and purchasesbecome a privilege, with a lengthy, undignifiedprocess. The law applies to men and women equally though.

In a divorce situation where there are no witnesses to marital conflicts and no documented injuries -- brains splattered on home furnishings, etc., no statement can be reallyaccepted as truthful.

Yet the individual's constitutional right disappears forever.

How about assaults with firearms when they are not used as firearms -- pistol whipped with the butt of a revolver or slapped or pushed with the stock of a long gun? Each is an assault with a firearm, but not in a way that's different than a non-gun.

:dude:

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We are gettting a little off topic from the original post... But I fill finish this with your answer.

Not picking up after your dog is probably NOT a felony in any state. So gun ownership is not threatened.

But any felony or domestic assault conviction does threaten your ownership.

Sure... people can lie and you could could lose your rights to gun ownership.

Have I seen this happen? Possibly! I have seen family members make claims of assault I did not believe and then the family member get convicted in court. It is out of my hands at that point. I am compelled to arrest based on a "claim" of assault alone.

So the thing to remember in Virginia or any other state it applies to....

Do not EVER assault or touch a family member who is mad at you. If an argument starts... you better be running out the door or kissing their ass.

All they have to do is SAY you did it and you risk losing your firearm ownership.

OK... I think we are done here... back to schools.

I have never known a person to be arrested for having a gun near a school unless they were involved in some other criminal enterprise.

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Thanks for your responses. I wasa little off topic for the original post, but it does confirm a scenario where someone's 2A constitutional right is permanently removed by a misdemeanor conviction on testimony from a witness whose credibility is widely accepted as weak regardless of sex. What other constitutional rights are permanently removed from a citizen as the result of a misdemeanor conviction?

How about pointing a gun in self defense at a spouse who is wielding a knife? If the potential knife assualt is not considered life-threatening by the judge, then does defending one's self with apointed gun result in a conviction that removes the gun pointer's 2A right?

My questions aren't hostile to you or a silly test of knowledge and I appreciate your responses.

My general point, which I've made here and elsewhere, is that the complexity of gun lawsand their penalties are eroding a constitutional right. What will I do about it? Eat lunch.

:dude:

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matt605 wrote:

Thanks for your responses. I wasa little off topic for the original post, but it does confirm a scenario where someone's 2A constitutional right is permanently removed by a misdemeanor conviction on testimony from a witness whose credibility is widely accepted as weak regardless of sex. What other constitutional rights are permanently removed from a citizen as the result of a misdemeanor conviction?

How about pointing a gun in self defense at a spouse who is wielding a knife? If the potential knife assualt is not considered life-threatening by the judge, then does defending one's self with apointed gun result in a conviction that removes the gun pointer's 2A right?

My questions aren't hostile to you or a silly test of knowledge and I appreciate your responses.

My general point, which I've made here and elsewhere, is that the complexity of gun lawsand their penalties are eroding a constitutional right. What will I do about it? Eat lunch.

:dude:

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I think we can all agree... As time goes by.... there is more and more change.

There is no way to stop it. It is GOING to happen. The only thing you can do is run for office and change things back. Or convince that person in office to try and make the change.

Once something is passed into law... it is real hard to get rid of it. People do not miss what they do not have. But when you try to get rid of something that exists... you will have two sides fighting to keep and remove it.

Our system is far from perfect... but take a look at some other countries!!! This can be far worse!

In Mexico... you can only own a .22 cal weapon.

In the US... you can own a 50 cal or even a machine gun!

Something to think about.

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ed wrote:

- I disarm in the car (bad idea/illegal) to handle loaded firearm in the drop off loop at an elementary school) to got out and help her.

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Please explain to me (and I'm being serious here) why this is illegal. Perhaps I'm missing something in the way that you are explaining it.

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ProShooter wrote:

ed wrote:

- I disarm in the car (bad idea/illegal) to handle loaded firearm in the drop off loop at an elementary school) to got out and help her.

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Please explain to me (and I'm being serious here) why this is illegal. Perhaps I'm missing something in the way that you are explaining it.

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http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

§ 18.2-308.1. Possession of firearm, stun weapon, or other weapon on school property prohibited.

A. If any person possesses any (i) stun weapon as defined in this section; (ii) knife, except a pocket knife having a folding metal blade of less than three inches; or (iii) weapon, including a weapon of like kind, designated in subsection A of § 18.2-308, other than a firearm; upon (a) the property of any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (b) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (c) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

B. If any person possesses any firearm designed or intended to expel a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material while such person is upon (i) any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds; (ii) that portion of any property open to the public and then exclusively used for school-sponsored functions or extracurricular activities while such functions or activities are taking place; or (iii) any school bus owned or operated by any such school, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony; however, if the person possesses any firearm within a public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school building and intends to use, or attempts to use, such firearm, or displays such weapon in a threatening manner, such person shall be sentenced to a mandatory minimum term of imprisonment of five years to be served consecutively with any other sentence.

The exemptions set out in § 18.2-308 shall apply, mutatis mutandis, to the provisions of this section. The provisions of this section shall not apply to

(i) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of the school's curriculum or activities;

(ii) a person possessing a knife customarily used for food preparation or service and using it for such purpose;

(iii) persons who possess such weapon or weapons as a part of any program sponsored or facilitated by either the school or any organization authorized by the school to conduct its programs either on or off the school premises;

(iv) any law-enforcement officer;

(v) any person who possesses a knife or blade which he uses customarily in his trade; (vi) a person who possesses an unloaded firearm that is in a closed container, or a knife having a metal blade, in or upon a motor vehicle, or an unloaded shotgun or rifle in a firearms rack in or upon a motor vehicle; or

(vii) a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit and possesses a concealed handgun while in a motor vehicle in a parking lot, traffic circle, or other means of vehicular ingress or egress to the school.

For the purposes of this paragraph, "weapon" includes a knife having a metal blade of three inches or longer and "closed container" includes a locked vehicle trunk.

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So, to expand on LEO's quote of the law, once Ed draws his gun to unload it and lock it up, until such time it's locked up, he's unlawfully in possession of a firearm on school property, a Class 6 felony.

Not good.

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TexasNative wrote:

So, to expand on LEO's quote of the law, once Ed draws his gun to unload it and lock it up, until such time it's locked up, he's unlawfully in possession of a firearm on school property, a Class 6 felony.

Not good.

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For that brief moment in time, between the gun being concealed in your holster to the point where the gun is locked up in, let's say, the glove compartment does notequate to a law violation. What are we talking about, 2 seconds?

Its no different than if you were OC'ing and you locked your gun in your glove compartment and got out. You are not illegally carrying a concealed weapon for the 2 seconds that it takes to lock it in the glove compartment and get out of the car.

Yesterday, I had to pick my son up from school. I pulled into the parking lot, parked, drew my gun from my concealment holster and locked it in the glove compartment. I then went into the school to get him. There's no law violation in either case.


ETA- missed a word

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I didn't realize laws had a duration limitation. So, exactly how long is this duration where you're allowed to break the law, without it breaking the law?

Also, in your example, you were still breaking the law if you didn't unload your pistol before you locked it up.

I'm not trying to argue for argument's sake, but there's nothing fuzzy about the law. As has been said many times before, there are some technical violations that no reasonable LEO would charge you with, but that doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law when you do them, and it also doesn't mean that an unreasonable LEO won't charge you, too.

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TexasNative wrote:

I didn't realize laws had a duration limitation. So, exactly how long is this duration where you're allowed to break the law, without it breaking the law?

Also, in your example, you were still breaking the law if you didn't unload your pistol before you locked it up.

I'm not trying to argue for argument's sake, but there's nothing fuzzy about the law. As has been said many times before, there are some technical violations that no reasonable LEO would charge you with, but that doesn't mean you aren't breaking the law when you do them, and it also doesn't mean that an unreasonable LEO won't charge you, too.

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The difference is in the fact that you go from "carrying" to the process of "storing". Its an unwrittencommon sense thing.

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Since when did common sense apply to the law?

The law says that if you possess a firearm on school property, you've committed a Class 6 felony. It then lists exceptions, two of which are pertinent here: 1) if it's unloaded and in a closed container, or a rifle or shotgun in a gun rack, or 2) if a Concealed Handgun Permit holder possesses it concealed.

So, for the time that it's not concealed until it's unloaded and put away, you're possessing a firearm on school property not subject to the exceptions to the law.

Now, this may well be one of those situations that LEO229 talks about when no LEO is going to charge anyone unless they're already charged with something else and they want to "pile on."

You may be right that you'll never get arrested for it, but if you're saying you're not breaking the law, you're dead wrong.

Added, because I forgot to mention it initially: The law never uses the words "carry" or "store." It only says "possess." And I don't plan to depend on "unwritten common sense" to keep me out of the hoosegow and in possession of my 2nd Amendment rights.

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ProShooter wrote:

For that brief moment in time, between the gun being concealed in your holster to the point where the gun is locked up in, let's say, the glove compartment does notequate to a law violation. What are we talking about, 2 seconds?

Its no different than if you were OC'ing and you locked your gun in your glove compartment and got out. You are not illegally carrying a concealed weapon for the 2 seconds that it takes to lock it in the glove compartment and get out of the car.

Yesterday, I had to pick my son up from school. I pulled into the parking lot, parked, drew my gun from my concealment holster and locked it in the glove compartment. I then went into the school to get him. There's no law violation in either case.

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I get what you are saying..... but there is no "couple of seconds" exclusion.

Murder is murder.. you willnever get two seconds where you are not in violation. The deed is done the moment you start.

I could tell you for days on how many people have told me the same thing.... It was only for a second.. I almost stopped... :lol:

The law is the law.... you do not get a few seconds to break it and not be wrong the moment you started.

But with most laws.... a valid reason can come into play.

The speed limit is 55 but cars can do 160. Why? :?

You may need to break the speed limit in order to merge into traffic that is traveling 75. How can you possibly do this by driving55??!! Not possible without creating a hazard.

So you would need to speed to get into traffic. So here... and here alone... is one unwritten exception on the law.

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LEO 229 wrote:

ProShooter wrote:

For that brief moment in time, between the gun being concealed in your holster to the point where the gun is locked up in, let's say, the glove compartment does notequate to a law violation. What are we talking about, 2 seconds?

Its no different than if you were OC'ing and you locked your gun in your glove compartment and got out. You are not illegally carrying a concealed weapon for the 2 seconds that it takes to lock it in the glove compartment and get out of the car.

Yesterday, I had to pick my son up from school. I pulled into the parking lot, parked, drew my gun from my concealment holster and locked it in the glove compartment. I then went into the school to get him. There's no law violation in either case.

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I get what you are saying..... but there is no "couple of seconds" exclusion.

Murder is murder.. you willnever get two seconds where you are not in violation. The deed is done the moment you start.

I could tell you for days on how many people have told me the same thing.... It was only for a second.. I almost stopped... :lol:

The law is the law.... you do not get a few seconds to break it and not be wrong the moment you started.

But with most laws.... a valid reason can come into play.

The speed limit is 55 but cars can do 160. Why? :?

You may need to break the speed limit in order to merge into traffic that is traveling 75. How can you possibly do this by driving55??!! Not possible without creating a hazard.

So you would need to speed to get into traffic. So here... and here alone... is one unwritten exception on the law.

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LEO - I'm sure that you understand the difference between carrying, possessing and storing, whether written or not or if you have to read between the lines....there is an understanding in 'the real world' of what your intent is and what you are in the process of doing. I dont know any other way to explain it.

Let's say that I am walking down the street and find a bag of marijuana. I look up and there's a police car sitting there. I pick up the bag and walk over to the cop, hand it to him and say "hey, I just found this on the ground". Was it physically in my posession, yes. Was I "in posession" of marijuana under the eyes of the law, no.

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ProShooter wrote:

LEO - I'm sure that you understand the difference between carrying, possessing and storing, whether written or not or if you have to read between the lines....there is an understanding in 'the real world' of what your intent is and what you are in the process of doing. I dont know any other way to explain it.

Let's say that I am walking down the street and find a bag of marijuana. I look up and there's a police car sitting there. I pick up the bag and walk over to the cop, hand it to him and say "hey, I just found this on the ground". Was it physically in my posession, yes. Was I "in posession" of marijuana under the eyes of the law, no.

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Possession = To be in control of something either by virtue of locationor by thephysical act of having on your person in some way.... Pocket, belt, hand.. ect.

Carrying = Physical Possession - Long Term

Storing = Physical Possession - Short Term

If you pick up the marijuana are you not in possession? Nobody told you to pick it up, right?

But then you could pick up a gun you found along side the road. You take it for safe keeping and turn it over to the police. The gun turns out to be stolen. So were you not in possession of stolen property?

In any case... you still need some intent for wrong doing.

Many things can be condoned or explained. Can you imaging it every code demanded the person in violation of the letter of the codebe arrested?!!!

Good reason is does not. The LEO will decide and if he is wrong... the Judge and Jury have the finaldecision.

LEOs are human and can make mistakes and errors in judgement.

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Appeals to reasonableness aren't valid in discussions of 2nd Amendment issues. Remember there are citizens who are so hostile to every form of gun ownership and use that every opportunity to curtail the right will be pursued. They want to take your right away by every means possible. Revenge runs its course, but people never tire of doing "good."

:dude:

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TexasNative wrote:

once Ed draws his gun to unload it and lock it up, until such time it's locked up, he's unlawfully in possession of a firearm on school property, a Class 6 felony.

Not good.

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