The "1000" foot rule for schools

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Comp-tech wrote:

In Tennessee, You can’t shoot any game other than whales from a moving automobile.
I wonder if one would be arrested for that one?

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/tennessee

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I'm not sure I see the point of your post, but just so you know, that whale law that you posted does not appear to be an actual current Tennessee law.

The only law that comes close doesn't seem to mention whales at all.
Tenn 70-4-109:


"It is unlawful to chase, hunt, or kill any wild birds, wild animals or wild fowl in the state of Tennessee from any craft propelled by electric, gasoline, steam or sail power, or airplane or hydroplane or from any automobile or motor vehicle, unless otherwise provided by law, rule and regulation or by proclamation; provided, that under no circumstance shall this subsection (a) be construed as authorizing the legalization of hunting from an automobile or motor vehicle while under power."

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Yeah, see, a whale is an animal, so I don't see how the whale thing applies.

Can we get back on topic, now?

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SouthernBoy wrote:

I have read some of the various code items regarding this subject and I have to admit, there is still confusion on my part. I know that I can carry a concealed firearm onto school property while remaining in my vehicle providing I possess a valid permit. However, my question is for open carry.

Can a person walk (or drive or ride) past a school that is in session while open carrying a handgun in Virginia? An excellent example might be one who walks his dog on the sidewalk and strolls past a school. Is this legal and is he free to do this?

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Aahh..the stupid 1,000 feet law that keeps coming up all over the country. They had it in Florida (not sure if its still in effect). It was of course stupid (and why doesn't the AG screen these laws for constitutionality and common sense anyway ?).

It made anyone driving in a car, walking or living within a 1,000 feet, technically, a criminal. Have I said stupid yet ???

Criminals love gun free zones. when will they ever learn ?

We are likely to see more of this in the next two years until the next senate and house elections.

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marrandy wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

I have read some of the various code items regarding this subject and I have to admit, there is still confusion on my part. I know that I can carry a concealed firearm onto school property while remaining in my vehicle providing I possess a valid permit. However, my question is for open carry.

Can a person walk (or drive or ride) past a school that is in session while open carrying a handgun in Virginia? An excellent example might be one who walks his dog on the sidewalk and strolls past a school. Is this legal and is he free to do this?

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Aahh..the stupid 1,000 feet law that keeps coming up all over the country. They had it in Florida (not sure if its still in effect). It was of course stupid (and why doesn't the AG screen these laws for constitutionality and common sense anyway ?).

It made anyone driving in a car, walking or living within a 1,000 feet, technically, a criminal. Have I said stupid yet ???

Criminals love gun free zones. when will they ever learn ?

We are likely to see more of this in the next two years until the next senate and house elections.

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I asked a Virginia state police officer this exact question this afternoon at the Dulles gun show. Now granted, they don't know all of the Virginia or Federal code as it pertains to such things. But he said as long as your intent is not to cross over onto school property (such as walking along a sidewalk), you'd be fine.

Still this question does seem to have a lot of grey area.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

I asked a Virginia state police officer this exact question this afternoon at the Dulles gun show. Now granted, they don't know all of the Virginia or Federal code as it pertains to such things. But he said as long as your intent is not to cross over onto school property (such as walking along a sidewalk), you'd be fine.

Still this question does seem to have a lot of grey area.

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Just to start this argument back up...
Federal 18 USC 922 does not give an exception for if you are just walking along the sidewalk. Intent to enter school property is not mentioned in the law. Just being in a "School zone". While I think we are all in agreement that a rational LEO is not going to bust anyone for SOLEY this....Everyone should be informed of what the law actually IS.
There is no grey area. It IS against federal law to possess a firearm within 1000 feet of a public, parochial or private school unless you meet one of the exceptions laid out in the law.

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mkl wrote:

SouthernBoy wrote:

I asked a Virginia state police officer this exact question this afternoon at the Dulles gun show. Now granted, they don't know all of the Virginia or Federal code as it pertains to such things. But he said as long as your intent is not to cross over onto school property (such as walking along a sidewalk), you'd be fine.

Still this question does seem to have a lot of grey area.

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Just to start this argument back up...
Federal 18 USC 922 does not give an exception for if you are just walking along the sidewalk. Intent to enter school property is not mentioned in the law. Just being in a "School zone". While I think we are all in agreement that a rational LEO is not going to bust anyone for SOLEY this....Everyone should be informed of what the law actually IS.
There is no grey area. It IS against federal law to possess a firearm within 1000 feet of a public, parochial or private school unless you meet one of the exceptions laid out in the law.

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Which means in light of what the state LEO says, and others as well, there is still some grey area. Regarding this topic, I have heard so many opposing and different ideas and opinions it just makes it that much more difficult to arrive at a decision. I have heard that in Virginia if you have a CHP and are open carrying across the street or two blocks away in you neighborhood for that matter, that you are fine. The "1000 rule, of course, make absolutely no logical sense for the simple fact that people own, transport, and carry firearms everyday across the state well within 1000 feet of schools. For the law to be upheld, there would have to be physical and visible 1000 foot radius boundries so that we would know where we could and could not move about.

I'm going to ask this same question of a Prince William officer and maybe some others just to see what kind of response I get from them. The officer with whom I spoke today, said that just walking by the school and not going onto school property would not get you stopped. But that was him.

Crazy, isn't it.

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"The "1000 rule, of course, make absolutely no logical sense for the simple fact that people own, transport, and carry firearms everyday across the state well within 1000 feet of schools. For the law to be upheld, there would have to be physical and visible 1000 foot radius boundries so that we would know where we could and could not move about."

Most laws don't make sense, yet they are still laws.

As for boundaries, that was the argument for the defense of the guy who was recently (within the past year or so?) stopped with a gun on a parkway in NPS land. He tried to use the defense that there were no signs alerting him of the fact that he couldn't carry there. There were no signs saying it was NPS land, or that firearms were banned. The ruling was that it didn't matter if it wasn't marked, you should know the law regardless.

If the court ruled the same way here, they do not need to provide you with boundaries, you are expected to know the boundaries.

Again, for the federal law the ONLY gray area appears to be that no one enforces it presently. The law is very specific about what is and is not allowed. Open carry with a CHP from the state the school is in is LEGAL. Open carry without a permit (from the state the school is in) is ILLEGAL. Will you be stopped for it? Almost certainly not ,at THIS time.


The full opinion of the court deciding that areas do not need to be marked:
http://www.vawd.uscourts.gov/opinions/urbanski/mo.708po024gettier.pdf

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GFSZA was declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS. It was reenacted by congress with an interstate commerce statement that does not pass the sniff test. The reenacted law has not been tested in federal court because no prosecutor wants to bring a losing case.

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Hey mkl, check out this link. It describes an event that is right in there with what has been posted on this thread by you and I and a few others. Interesting read.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=21837&forum_id=65&jump_to=364169#p364169

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Thundar wrote:

GFSZA was declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS.  It was reenacted by congress with an interstate commerce statement that does not pass the sniff test.  The reenacted law has not been tested in federal court because no prosecutor wants to bring a losing case.

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I agree. I think this law will not be upheld by a supreme court challenge. That does not mean I want to be the one to be charged with it

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Thundar wrote:

GFSZA was declared unconstitutional by SCOTUS. It was reenacted by congress with an interstate commerce statement that does not pass the sniff test. The reenacted law has not been tested in federal court because no prosecutor wants to bring a losing case.

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Well, when you think about it, that's brilliant.... by not trying it, the law remains on the books, and essentially in force for all "law abiding" citizens.

TFred

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matt605 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Or you pull a gun on your immediate family or girlfriend you live with. :uhoh:

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How is that established in court? 

:dude:

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By being charged and convicted for assault upon a family member. (Assault is the threatened immediate unprivileged, offensive offer to touch or cause the touching of the person of another without legal excuse or justification.)

Also:

7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

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Virginia Code § 18.2-308

Btw, MKL is right in everything he said. Violation of the school zone law isn't just a traffic ticket, it's five years in the federal penitentiary. You may not walk by a school on a public sidewalk while in possession of a firearm. If you're in a car with a CHP, then you may drive by the school, but not otherwise, and it doesn't matter whether the gun is locked up, unloaded, and stored safely in the trunk. "Possession" for the purposes of this statute is not the same as "about his person" for the Va. concealed weapon statute. The reaction of a number of people writing in has been what I call, "wishful thinking" - you may well wish the law were other than it is, but it is unwise to act on the wish as if it were reality.

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user wrote:

matt605 wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

Or you pull a gun on your immediate family or girlfriend you live with. :uhoh:

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How is that established in court?

:dude:

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By being charged and convicted for assault upon a family member. (Assault is the threatened immediate unprivileged, offensive offer to touch or cause the touching of the person of another without legal excuse or justification.)

Also:

7. An individual who has been convicted of two or more misdemeanors within the five-year period immediately preceding the application, if one of the misdemeanors was a Class 1 misdemeanor, but the judge shall have the discretion to deny a permit for two or more misdemeanors that are not Class 1. Traffic infractions and misdemeanors set forth in Title 46.2 shall not be considered for purposes of this disqualification.

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Virginia Code § 18.2-308

Btw, MKL is right in everything he said. Violation of the school zone law isn't just a traffic ticket, it's five years in the federal penitentiary. You may not walk by a school on a public sidewalk while in possession of a firearm. If you're in a car with a CHP, then you may drive by the school, but not otherwise, and it doesn't matter whether the gun is locked up, unloaded, and stored safely in the trunk. "Possession" for the purposes of this statute is not the same as "about his person" for the Va. concealed weapon statute. The reaction of a number of people writing in has been what I call, "wishful thinking" - you may well wish the law were other than it is, but it is unwise to act on the wish as if it were reality.

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Still a lot of grey area from what I have seen and heard from both people on this site and from LEO's. This also brings up other interesting scenarios. Like driving by a school with a gun on your seat and without a CHP. Or let's say your house is across the street from a school and you have a sidewalk in front of your house. Step onto the sidewalk when armed (in particular openly armed) and you supposedly have a problem. Take one step onto your property and the problem vanishes.

And what about the street that is one block behind your home but well within the 1000 foot line. If you are walking on that street armed, then what?

Just too much grey area. I know, one could say that the statute says this and that's the way it is, but apparently that is not the way it is. I drive by schools all the time and carry a firearm frequently within 1000 feet, both openly and concealed.

Crazy.

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SouthernBoy wrote:

Still a lot of grey area from what I have seen and heard from both people on this site and from LEO's. This also brings up other interesting scenarios. Like driving by a school with a gun on your seat and without a CHP. Or let's say your house is across the street from a school and you have a sidewalk in front of your house. Step onto the sidewalk when armed (in particular openly armed) and you supposedly have a problem. Take one step onto your property and the problem vanishes.

And what about the street that is one block behind your home but well within the 1000 foot line. If you are walking on that street armed, then what?

Just too much grey area. I know, one could say that the statute says this and that's the way it is, but apparently that is not the way it is. I drive by schools all the time and carry a firearm frequently within 1000 feet, both openly and concealed.

Crazy.

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Your thinking seems to be: "This law would disarm everyone who does not have a permit on public property within 1000 feet of a school. The government would never disarm people, so this law can't be valid. This law would be way too intrusive, so I will choose to believe the government would never actually pass it and there must be some grey area in the law."

Well, guess what. That IS what this law does. I still don't understand the confusion. Yes, the law is horrible. Yes it makes unlicensed OCing hard (or even impossible) in places near schools. That was the INTENT. The INTENT is to disarm EVERYONE within 1000 feet of a school. Hence the "Gun Free School Zone Act" name. Fortunately, they couldn't get everyone... private property and permit holders are allowed, and some others as explicitly defined in the law. Yes it makes a ton of crazy scenarios where you are legal at 1000 feet one inch from a school, but illegal at 999 feet. Yes it makes it illegal just driving by in a car. Yes yes yes. That was the point. To make it as hard as possible for people to carry. To create a "Gun Free School Zone" around schools.

" I drive by schools all the time and carry a firearm frequently within 1000 feet, both openly and concealed."

One. Since you mentioned concealed, If you have a license, you are fine to carry there. This is only applicable (Federally) to people without licenses.

Having said that, Yes, you may break the law everyday and have had no problem, but that does not change the legality. There is no grey area in the law. The only grey area is that it is not being enforced at this moment. Lots of people break lots of laws everyday and nothing happens to them, that doesn't change the law by itself.

As mentioned above, it may very well not pass muster constitutionally, but until that time....

There is no legal "grey area". Maybe we have a different idea of "grey area". If you mean by "grey area" as "there is a good chance I can do this and not be arrested", then yes, there is a lot of grey area. A ton. Other than that...I can't see what you mean by "grey area".

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SouthernBoy...
wrote:

And what about the street that is one block behind your home but well within the 1000 foot line. If you are walking on that street armed, then what?

Just too much grey area. I know, one could say that the statute says this and that's the way it is, but apparently that is not the way it is. I drive by schools all the time and carry a firearm frequently within 1000 feet, both openly and concealed.

Crazy.

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I hear you, and I agree. As has been mentioned earlier, some of the purpose of the statute is to "get the bad guys" for other offenses, and to increase the likely acceptance of a plea bargain by upping the ante. Plea bargaining is like horse trading - they charge the defendant with everything they can, so they'll have something to bargain with - possession of cocaine with intent to distribute might be worth three years in a state prison, as opposed to being tried and found guilty not only of that, but also of use of a firearm in the commission of a felony and possession of a firearm in a school zone.

This is a very badly written statute and it criminalizes otherwise lawful behavior for no good reason.

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user wrote:

SouthernBoy...
wrote:

And what about the street that is one block behind your home but well within the 1000 foot line. If you are walking on that street armed, then what?

Just too much grey area. I know, one could say that the statute says this and that's the way it is, but apparently that is not the way it is. I drive by schools all the time and carry a firearm frequently within 1000 feet, both openly and concealed.

Crazy.

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I hear you, and I agree. As has been mentioned earlier, some of the purpose of the statute is to "get the bad guys" for other offenses, and to increase the likely acceptance of a plea bargain by upping the ante. Plea bargaining is like horse trading - they charge the defendant with everything they can, so they'll have something to bargain with - possession of cocaine with intent to distribute might be worth three years in a state prison, as opposed to being tried and found guilty not only of that, but also of use of a firearm in the commission of a felony and possession of a firearm in a school zone.

This is a very badly written statute and it criminalizes otherwise lawful behavior for no good reason.

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Yep and it makes it hard for local police to interpret the law... as well as citizens who only wish to abide by the law and do what's right.

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Okay, I'll try to clear up a few misconceptions. IF you have a valid VA CHP, either resident or non-resident, you are exempt IN VIRGINIA from the Federal GFSZA section on the CARRY of firearms anywhere within the Zone, from the 1,000 foot line to the cafeteria. The Federal law makes no distinction between the 1,000 foot zone outside school property, and the school property itself (see the UTAH page where parents and teachers with permits carry IN SCHOOL BUILDINGS). Now, under Virginia law, you cannot carry with a CHP on school property UNLESS you are in your car, the car is in the parking area, and you don't display the firearm or get out of the vehicle. That would most likely include the sidewalk that's on the same side of the street as the school, since it's highly probable that it's school property but with a "sidewalk easement". You CAN walk down the street, open carry, with a CHP, on the sidewalk on the OPPOSITE side of the street from the school, because then you are not breaking either the Federal or Virginia laws. You can also drive down the street next to the school, or anywhere in the 1,000 foot zone, either open or concealed with a CHP.

IF you don't have a valid VA CHP, you cannot CARRY within the 1,000 foot zone at all, unless you are on private property where you either own it or have permission to carry. You CAN transport your firearm through the zone, as long as you meet the Federal criteria for doing so (unloaded, stored, etc.). The trick is getting from private property to a car parked on a public street, so park in a private driveway to avoid this.

Another point worth noting; the Federal law does not have any exception for permit holders in the section prohibiting DISCHARGE of a firearm in a school zone. If a VA permit holder defends himself on public property within the 1,000 foot zone where carrying lawfully, even if legal under VA law on self-defense, he commits a Federal felony.

Finally, if you have a valid VA permit, that is reciprocated or recognized in another State, you will be in violation of the Federal law if you carry in a school zone in that State unless you possess a permit or license issued IN THAT STATE; the Federal law does not recognize reciprocity or recognition between States. The letter from the BATFE emphasizing that point is available for review on www.handgunlaw.us (see below)

Please, everyone, review the applicable Code Sections and other references. There is too much confusion on this topic.

18USC922q, found at
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1491535&SIZE=106587&TYPE=TEXT

VA Code 18.2-308.1, found at
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

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johnfenter wrote:

Finally, if you have a valid VA permit, that is reciprocated or recognized in another State, you will be in violation of the Federal law if you carry in a school zone in that State unless you possess a permit or license issued IN THAT STATE; the Federal law does not recognize reciprocity or recognition between States. The letter from the BATFE emphasizing that point is available for review on http://www.handgunlaw.us (see below)

VA Code 18.2-308.1, found at
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

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I'm certainly not willing to be a test case, but from a quick read of the documents you provide here, I don't think I agree with the conclusion reached by the BATF official on the matter of reciprocity.

In the letter, he quotes the federal code on the exception as:

[One exception is where the individual possessing the firearm "is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State. . ."]

He then goes on to say:

[The law clearly provides that in order to qualify as an exception to the general prohibitions of the Gun-Free School Zones Act, the license must be issued by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of that State.]

That statement is false. According to his own quote in the previous paragraph, it only says "is licensed to do so by the State", and it mentions nothing about who issues the license. That entire paragraph is silent on who issues the license, just that the person must be licensed by the state in which the school is located.

And at the same time, our old standby CHP law, 18.2-308 clearly states:

[For purposes of applying the reciprocity provisions of subsection P, any person granted the privilege to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to this subdivision, while carrying the proof of consultation and favorable review required, shall be deemed to have been issued a concealed handgun permit.]

This says to me that Virginia considers me to be licensed, even if I only hold an out of state permit that is recognized.

Again, I'm not willing to be the test case, but it appears to me that if the quoted references are all the BATF has to conclude that reciprocal permits don't apply, they would be wrong if it were to ever be hashed out by a competent judge.

It appears to be another case where they win by default, because nobody wants to take the time, expense and personal trauma to call them on it.

TFred

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+1 Johnfenter!

Perhaps your analysis should be made a permanent post, as this question keeps popping up.

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johnfenter wrote:

Okay, I'll try to clear up a few misconceptions. IF you have a valid VA CHP, either resident or non-resident, you are exempt IN VIRGINIA from the Federal GFSZA section on the CARRY of firearms anywhere within the Zone, from the 1,000 foot line to the cafeteria. The Federal law makes no distinction between the 1,000 foot zone outside school property, and the school property itself (see the UTAH page where parents and teachers with permits carry IN SCHOOL BUILDINGS). Now, under Virginia law, you cannot carry with a CHP on school property UNLESS you are in your car, the car is in the parking area, and you don't display the firearm or get out of the vehicle. That would most likely include the sidewalk that's on the same side of the street as the school, since it's highly probable that it's school property but with a "sidewalk easement". You CAN walk down the street, open carry, with a CHP, on the sidewalk on the OPPOSITE side of the street from the school, because then you are not breaking either the Federal or Virginia laws. You can also drive down the street next to the school, or anywhere in the 1,000 foot zone, either open or concealed with a CHP.

IF you don't have a valid VA CHP, you cannot CARRY within the 1,000 foot zone at all, unless you are on private property where you either own it or have permission to carry. You CAN transport your firearm through the zone, as long as you meet the Federal criteria for doing so (unloaded, stored, etc.). The trick is getting from private property to a car parked on a public street, so park in a private driveway to avoid this.

Another point worth noting; the Federal law does not have any exception for permit holders in the section prohibiting DISCHARGE of a firearm in a school zone. If a VA permit holder defends himself on public property within the 1,000 foot zone where carrying lawfully, even if legal under VA law on self-defense, he commits a Federal felony.

Finally, if you have a valid VA permit, that is reciprocated or recognized in another State, you will be in violation of the Federal law if you carry in a school zone in that State unless you possess a permit or license issued IN THAT STATE; the Federal law does not recognize reciprocity or recognition between States. The letter from the BATFE emphasizing that point is available for review on http://www.handgunlaw.us (see below)

Please, everyone, review the applicable Code Sections and other references. There is too much confusion on this topic.

18USC922q, found at
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/usc.cgi?ACTION=RETRIEVE&FILE=$$xa$$busc18.wais&start=1491535&SIZE=106587&TYPE=TEXT

VA Code 18.2-308.1, found at
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308.1

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/batf_school_zone.pdf

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Thank you, sir. But I have to say that this part is just plain weird.

"If a VA permit holder defends himself on public property within the 1,000 foot zone where carrying lawfully, even if legal under VA law on self-defense, he commits a Federal felony."

I would bet that one is rarely if ever enforced. Besides if it was, couldn't the federal government be held as an assessory after the fact since their actions could be viewed in the light of culpability?