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Thread: Join, or Die

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    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    I know there are already a couple of versions of the Join or Die image floating around the web that have been modified to a firearms community theme, but I wanted one that included both OC and CCW. I get tired of the debate some times, and want to point out that we all need to stick together.



  2. #2
    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    I guess I'm not helping unify our movement much by making this suggestion, but-

    I think if it were me, I would change "OC" to Exposed Carry and "CCW" to Concealed Carry. I have a couple of reasons for this. First- not everyone understands what OC and CCW mean. Second- I wholly support concealed carry- but coming from a strictly constitutional perspective, licensing concealed carry really isnt a second amendment rights issue. The license, being an infringement, is what the 2A was intended to inhibit.

    I'm sure there are people going "Whaaaa?" to the suggestion that "CCW" is not a second amendment issue, but that need not be explained on the "Join or Die" image.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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  3. #3
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Suggestions are good. Only problem is there's not much room for long words or statements in the image. "OC" and "CCW" are nice and short. I'm still fiddling with the image...

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    I would leave it as is. The ??? of what OC or CCW stands for is a good opportunity to explain. If someone would ask, the ice has been broken and dialogue opened for discussion. I would like to have a print like that on a T-shirt. It is one of the only few gun cause prints I would wear. Most I find to be obnoxious and in your face. This though is a fine idea.

    There is a certain amount ofhistory andthe obvious statement here that catches the eye "out of many one" and "don't tread on me".

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Suggestions are good. Only problem is there's not much room for long words or statements in the image. "OC" and "CCW" are nice and short. I'm still fiddling with the image...
    My suggestions - move OC to the head, where OC is now indicate Blk Powder......
    make "cuts in the snake red and "JOIN, or DIE" in blue you now have red, white & blue.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Yate hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  6. #6
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    My suggestions - move OC to the head, where OC is now indicate Blk Powder......
    Funny how you read "Black Powder". I think there was a version of this that did include black powder. This one says Black Rifle, as in EBR, or Evil Black Rifles, i.e. ARs.



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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    RTKBA means just that... and not limited to firearms. ARMS! CCW is 'permission/license' to carry concealed... that's all... Just the concealment. To bear arms requires... or should require NOTHING. No joining required... it's not a club. It's a pre-existing RIGHT of EVERY citizen not otherwise prohibited (for cause) to exercise by choice. 'Join or Die' sound's like "Support Mental Health or I'll Kill You".

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    RTKBA means just that... and not limited to firearms. ARMS! CCW is 'permission/license' to carry concealed... that's all... Just the concealment. To bear arms requires... or should require NOTHING. No joining required... it's not a club. It's a pre-existing RIGHT of EVERY citizen not otherwise prohibited (for cause) to exercise by choice. 'Join or Die' sound's like "Support Mental Health or I'll Kill You".
    Understand and agree in part.

    This flag/sign refers to the "united we stand, divided we fall" line of reasoning - just as it did originally. The "or die" wording isn't a threat or penalty imposed by the proponents of unity amonst gun owners. It is the forecast of what will surely happen should we not come together and join forces for the common good. It encourages us to set aside our differences in order that we may effectively accomplish our goals.

    The same thing that I think you espouse on these pages.

    Yata hey

    Amended/edited as to explanation of agreeing in part.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    RTKBA means just that... and not limited to firearms. ARMS! CCW is 'permission/license' to carry concealed... that's all... Just the concealment. To bear arms requires... or should require NOTHING. No joining required... it's not a club. It's a pre-existing RIGHT of EVERY citizen not otherwise prohibited (for cause) to exercise by choice. 'Join or Die' sound's like "Support Mental Health or I'll Kill You".
    I'm not sure I understand your meaning, at all.

    First, the Join or Die cartoon is a famous political cartoon drawn by Ben Franklin during the Revolutionary period. His point was the states had all better join together if they wanted to survive. The same motto holds true in the firearms community. If hunters don't care about the assault weapons guys, they are divided, and are weaker against the antis. If OCers don't support those that favor CCW, and vice-versa, then we are more likely to lose to the antis. The snake symbolism also contains deeper meaning to American Patriots. Go read the wiki pages on the Join or Die cartoon and the Gladsden Flag if you don't know what I'm talking about.

    And in this case, with OC and CCW, I mean only Open Carry as apposed to Concealed Carry. I am not advocating asking for government permision or joining a ccw club. I only use the abriviation CCW as apposed to CC, because more people will recognize the abriviation.



  10. #10
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Ben's snake is a poor choice. This was for unity during the Revolution... 'Join or Die'



    Nobodys gonna die here no matter what they prefer.

    "E Pluribus Armis Unum" maybe


    Timendi causa est nescire (Ignorance is the cause of fear) Age quod agis (Do what you are doing)

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Nobodys gonna die here no matter what they prefer.
    Those that have lost their right to keep and bear arms as the founding father envisoned it - D.C, NY, Md, NJ - might disagree with you. The examples are endless: Virginia Tech, Omaha Mall and church shootings.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Sheesh.... you guys read all sorts of things into everything. RTK&BA means just that. Arms... All bearable arms (not including destructive devices regulated otherwise).What form 'n flavor is free choice. Arms borne openly w/o 'permission' is a RIGHT. Now... go into somebody elses house 'n they can tell ya not to do that. Private property etc. You have a choice there too... disarm or stay out. By doing so you either assume the risk (if any) or not. These 'gun free zones' are an advertisment to 'Come kill us... we can't/won't stop you!'

    Gadsen flag? 'Don't tread on me' rattlesnake. I fly that... First Naval Jack has the same inscription. There's another... Concord flag maybe? I fly a version (have both) of the Gonzalez flag: "Come and take it!' One a cannon barrel 'n the other an M-4.

    I just disagree with the whole 'Join or Die' message idea. The exercise of a Right is free choice.... so is the method of exercise.

  13. #13
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Wow. This is truely amazing. My point is proven. We will die based on these responses. And for those that don't know what a metaphor is, I don't actually mean DIE. In this case, it means, if all gun enthusiests don't join together to fight as one against the anti-gun forces in America, we'll lose the fight and lose our rights. A classic example of this is Zumbo - advocating that hunting is OK but those evil black rifles should be illegal. These kinds of actions do more harm than any anti could ever do. I see this between those that prefer OC and those that prefer CC. Infighting weakens us. We all need to support for ALL forms of 2A rights, all types of guns, and ALL types of carry. To demonize any other segment of the firearms community is to shoot yourself in the foot. (And for Sonora, who takes everything literaly, that's a metaphor also.)



  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Wow. This is truely amazing. My point is proven. We will die based on these responses. And for those that don't know what a metaphor is, I don't actually mean DIE. In this case, it means, if all gun enthusiests don't join together to fight as one against the anti-gun forces in America, we'll lose the fight and lose our rights. A classic example of this is Zumbo - advocating that hunting is OK but those evil black rifles should be illegal. These kinds of actions do more harm than any anti could ever do. I see this between those that prefer OC and those that prefer CC. Infighting weakens us. We all need to support for ALL forms of 2A rights, all types of guns, and ALL types of carry. To demonize any other segment of the firearms community is to shoot yourself in the foot. (And for Sonora, who takes everything literaly, that's a metaphor also.)

    +1

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Wow. This is truely amazing. My point is proven. We will die based on these responses. And for those that don't know what a metaphor is, I don't actually mean DIE. In this case, it means, if all gun enthusiests don't join together to fight as one against the anti-gun forces in America, we'll lose the fight and lose our rights. A classic example of this is Zumbo - advocating that hunting is OK but those evil black rifles should be illegal. These kinds of actions do more harm than any anti could ever do. I see this between those that prefer OC and those that prefer CC. Infighting weakens us. We all need to support for ALL forms of 2A rights, all types of guns, and ALL types of carry. To demonize any other segment of the firearms community is to shoot yourself in the foot. (And for Sonora, who takes everything literaly, that's a metaphor also.)

    I understand metaphor and analogy quite well, thank you. I know what the hell it means... but it's not somethin' you'd wanna project to the freakin' anti-gun MEDIA. 'Talk about shootin' yerself in the foot. We (none of us) live inna vacuum. (Well... I dunno 'bout Kommiefornia... that's the land of fruits, nuts 'n flakes...

    "TheSocialist Moonbat Peoples Republik of Granola".

    I dunno who 'Zumbo' is... but I've owned both flavors of 'black rifles' since the late '70's. The 'Join or Die' thing is just bad ju-ju. Dunno if you've missed this... Prob'ly.

    SCJ Anthony Scalia: "The Second Amendmentextends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existance of the right and declares only that it shall not be infringed."

    It's already been 'written'. 'All instruments that constitute bearable arms'... not only firearms... Arms!You've already won and don't know it. Now... all ya gotta do is vote thoseliberal (kof-kof)pinko's out of office who impose unconstitutional socialist tyranny upon thee and thine.




  16. #16
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Stay Connected or Fail in Pieces doesn't have much of a ring to it does it.

    Actually, I understand your inarticulated problem with the word"die." It is easily misunderstood out of context. It is the shock, to someone who leaps to the conclusion that someone that doesn't agree will die, that potentionally hinders the message.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Stay Connected or Fail in Pieces doesn't have much of a ring to it does it.

    Actually, I understand your inarticulated problem with the word"die." It is easily misunderstood out of context. It is the shock, to someone who leaps to the conclusion that someone that doesn't agree will die, that potentionally hinders the message.

    Yata hey
    "Unite or Fail!"

  18. #18
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    Stay Connected or Fail in Pieces doesn't have much of a ring to it does it.

    Actually, I understand your inarticulated problem with the word"die." It is easily misunderstood out of context. It is the shock, to someone who leaps to the conclusion that someone that doesn't agree will die, that potentionally hinders the message.

    Yata hey
    "Unite or Fail!"
    Unite or Fail - Very good !

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    MudCamper wrote:
    Wow. This is truely amazing. My point is proven. We will die based on these responses. And for those that don't know what a metaphor is, I don't actually mean DIE. In this case, it means, if all gun enthusiests don't join together to fight as one against the anti-gun forces in America, we'll lose the fight and lose our rights. A classic example of this is Zumbo - advocating that hunting is OK but those evil black rifles should be illegal. These kinds of actions do more harm than any anti could ever do. I see this between those that prefer OC and those that prefer CC. Infighting weakens us. We all need to support for ALL forms of 2A rights, all types of guns, and ALL types of carry. To demonize any other segment of the firearms community is to shoot yourself in the foot. (And for Sonora, who takes everything literaly, that's a metaphor also.)

    I understand metaphor and analogy quite well, thank you. I know what the hell it means... but it's not somethin' you'd wanna project to the freakin' anti-gun MEDIA. 'Talk about shootin' yerself in the foot. We (none of us) live inna vacuum. (Well... I dunno 'bout Kommiefornia... that's the land of fruits, nuts 'n flakes...

    "TheSocialist Moonbat Peoples Republik of Granola".

    I dunno who 'Zumbo' is... but I've owned both flavors of 'black rifles' since the late '70's. The 'Join or Die' thing is just bad ju-ju. Dunno if you've missed this... Prob'ly.

    SCJ Anthony Scalia: "The Second Amendmentextends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existance of the right and declares only that it shall not be infringed."

    It's already been 'written'. 'All instruments that constitute bearable arms'... not only firearms... Arms!You've already won and don't know it. Now... all ya gotta do is vote thoseliberal (kof-kof)pinko's out of office who impose unconstitutional socialist tyranny upon thee and thine.


    OK. First, I use this Franklin cartoon only to an audience within the gun community. It is not intended for those outside the gun community. That makes no sense at all.

    Second. Your California bashing demonstrates exactly the problem that I am talking about. You illustrate my point, perfectly. People like you hurt our cause. Go troll in your own states forum.



  20. #20
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    You're too busy bein' paranoid to even READ what I wrote there... (AADDS?)

    Uh... Keywords: Vacuum

    Won

    Vote

    Kommiefornia is not well thought of in AZ... or most anywhere else anymore. Izzat OUR fault? No wonder they won't let you carry locked 'n loaded.



  21. #21
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gentleman! Neutral corners please.

    Any public statement (in this case a flag) can benefit from analizing the audience. Do we wish to influence their reaction or simply be in their face. Neither approach is less honest but one way may be more benficial to our cause than another.

    If you simply think that this is your 1st Amend. right and disregard any potential fallout, then you are not the benefit to this site that I think you could be. No California isn't what it might be but then neither is Virginia. I might take offense if somebody slapped her (Va.) to hard - we are trying to improve things as I think you are.
    We are trying to avoid a perceived situation - in open discussion. You can take it or leave it. Please do so with dignity.

    You may resume.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    :P

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member MudCamper's Avatar
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    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    You're too busy bein' paranoid to even READ what I wrote there... (AADDS?)

    Uh... Keywords: Vacuum

    Won

    Vote

    Kommiefornia is not well thought of in AZ... or most anywhere else anymore. Izzat OUR fault? No wonder they won't let you carry locked 'n loaded.

    It is clear that you are a troll, and a fool. There's no point in continuing any debate with you.

  24. #24
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    snip......
    .snip....
    Actually, I prefer whomever has my back to be cool under pressure.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    MudCamper wrote:
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    You're too busy bein' paranoid to even READ what I wrote there... (AADDS?)

    Uh... Keywords: Vacuum

    Won

    Vote

    Kommiefornia is not well thought of in AZ... or most anywhere else anymore. Izzat OUR fault? No wonder they won't let you carry locked 'n loaded.

    It is clear that you are a troll, and a fool. There's no point in continuing any debate with you.
    Wind 'em up... Push their buttons 'n watch 'em GO! Whoohooo! :celebrate

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