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Thread: It Finally Happened

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    As some of you may know, but most don't, I manage a house for homeless veterans. We get all kinds through here. Most make it through the program, but some don't.

    Earlier this year we had to ask a resident to leave. He'd been here for about a year before it started becoming apparent that he had some mental problems. To be specific, we believe he's an undiagnosed paranoid schizophrenic. He has all of the signs, but we couldn't get him to see a doctor to be evaluated. When he started accusing myself and his case manager of being part of a well organized plot to destroy him we had to ask him to leave. We tried to get him into another program, but he refused and found his own lodgings, not leaving a forwarding address.

    Flash forward to last night. At about 9:40 I received a call on my cell phone. He didn't identify himself, but his voice is pretty distinctive. He told me I'm dead, but I just don't know it yet. He included the case manager in this threat as well. THEN he went on to say that he'd anally raped the case manager's daughter (she turned 1 last weekend) and he hopes she dies.

    I really don't think he's going to follow up on any of this, but rest assured that my MilPro .40 will be by my side EVERY time I go out.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    This is probably not the forum to be airing your suspicions or allegations whatever their veracity. If you are required to exercise deadly force and against this individual nemesis of yours then the last sentence of your post may be your sentence.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Yeah, I'd have to agree with Doug here.......I'd go ahead and remove everything you just posted and call the proper people to make sure this is put down on paper......and hell, if you can go through the process of a restraining order, it would help if anything did happen, give you a better case. Either way, you need to save that voicemail and file a report with the local PD, something.....you need to cover your ass......

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    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.

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    Definitely get law enforcement involved, whether or not they are able to help is irrelevant. You need to start a papertrail showing how you did everything you could prior to using force.

    I wouldn't bother tough-talking with a paranoid-schiz. Threats and defensive posturing don't really work well on people who have a diminished capacity for clear reasoning.

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    Regular Member j2l3's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Yeah, I'd have to agree with Doug here.......I'd go ahead and remove everything you just posted and call the proper people to make sure this is put down on paper......and hell, if you can go through the process of a restraining order, it would help if anything did happen, give you a better case. Either way, you need to save that voicemail and file a report with the local PD, something.....you need to cover your ass......
    While I agree that a Restraining Order would strengthen a case, it has no strength in the courts until it is served on the respondent. If you can't find him, it can't be served. Also, it won't be input to the state crime computer until is is served.

    The courts will require that you prove he knew about the order, or they won't view it as a violation.
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    3/325 wrote:
    Definitely get law enforcement involved, whether or not they are able to help is irrelevant. You need to start a papertrail showing how you did everything you could prior to using force.

    I wouldn't bother tough-talking with a paranoid-schiz. Threats and defensive posturing don't really work well on people who have a diminished capacity for clear reasoning.
    I'm not tough-talking with the guy. I know he's unstable and that to do so would be dangerous.

    Also, I'd already decided to head for the PD today to get this on the record. I firmly believe in establishing that paper trail.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    If you are required to exercise deadly force and against this individual nemesis of yours then the last sentence of your post may be your sentence.
    Really? Admitting you're carrying a gun because someone is making death threats against you and you're afraid for your life will result in you charged with murder should the worst happen?

    I completely disagree. If anything, I believe it would lend support to his case.

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    tricityguy wrote:
    If you are required to exercise deadly force and against this individual nemesis of yours then the last sentence of your post may be your sentence.
    Really? Admitting you're carrying a gun because someone is making death threats against you and you're afraid for your life will result in you charged with murder should the worst happen?

    I completely disagree. If anything, I believe it would lend support to his case.
    If you will notice, he edited his post shortly after the first response to his post. He could have had something in the post that you are unaware of and that he removed upon advice of the first response.

    If he posted as a last sentence: "If he comes near me I will put two rounds in his chest and when he falls to the ground I'll execute him by putting one in his skull" (PURELY HYPOTHETICAL EXAMPLE ONLY)...then the statement in the first response of "then the last sentence of you post may be your sentence" make sense as he could possibly be executed for premeditated murder.



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    Thank you. A QFT keeps the ill-considered statement on the record, so to speak.

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    If you will notice, he edited his post shortly after the first response to his post.
    Ah, got it. I missed that. I assumed Doug was talking about the statement of keeping a weapon by his side any time he goes out. My bad, nothing to see here, move along...

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    tricityguy wrote:
    If you are required to exercise deadly force and against this individual nemesis of yours then the last sentence of your post may be your sentence.
    Really? Admitting you're carrying a gun because someone is making death threats against you and you're afraid for your life will result in you charged with murder should the worst happen?

    I completely disagree. If anything, I believe it would lend support to his case.
    My bad, guys. I did indeed remove a statement from the end of the original post.

    The way things stand right now:

    1. Changed the locks

    2. Filed a police report to begin the paper trail on this guy.

    3. Will take out a restraining order tomorrow.

    4. Broadcasting to all concerned about the phone call, just in case.



    I really don't think he'll take things any further. I just have to act as if he will. It's a real pain in the keester.



    Edit: Removed question
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Bookman wrote:
    3/325 wrote:
    I wouldn't bother tough-talking with a paranoid-schiz...
    I'm not tough-talking with the guy. I know he's unstable and that to do so would be dangerous.
    I thought I read something in your post to the effect of (and I'm paraphrasing here) "I told him I had a gun and if he tried anything he'd be in for a nasty surprise."

    That's what I was referring to with my "tough-talk" remark.

    Anyway, glad to hear you started the paperwork. Documentation doesn't come with guarantees, but it sure doesn't hurt. Hope you (and his case mgr's family) remain safe and alert. Hopefully this guy will either get help before he does anything, or get put away for damaging property instead of people.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    I never even mentioned the pistol to him. What I'd said, but only in the post, was that my pistol would be with me at all times and that if he tried anything he'd be in for a surprise.

    He left before I bought the pistol and doesn't even know that I have it.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    David.Car wrote:
    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.
    Yeah, a restraining order has stopped how many guys intent on harming or killing someone? Lets try ZERO! A waste of time and effort.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.
    Yeah, a restraining order has stopped how many guys intent on harming or killing someone? Lets try ZERO! A waste of time and effort.
    It's not because it will actually stop the person from pulling anything they were going to anyway, that's what the gun is for. The restraining order is just one more plus to your side in the inevitable trial to follow a self defense shooting.......you can show proof that this person was intent on severe bodily harm or outright killing you. It shows that a judge agreed with your assessment that this was a dangerous person and you had to shoot him before he killed you or others.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.
    Yeah, a restraining order has stopped how many guys intent on harming or killing someone? Lets try ZERO! A waste of time and effort.
    It's not because it will actually stop the person from pulling anything they were going to anyway, that's what the gun is for. The restraining order is just one more plus to your side in the inevitable trial to follow a self defense shooting.......you can show proof that this person was intent on severe bodily harm or outright killing you. It shows that a judge agreed with your assessment that this was a dangerous person and you had to shoot him before he killed you or others.
    +1.
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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.
    Yeah, a restraining order has stopped how many guys intent on harming or killing someone? Lets try ZERO! A waste of time and effort.
    It's not because it will actually stop the person from pulling anything they were going to anyway, that's what the gun is for. The restraining order is just one more plus to your side in the inevitable trial to follow a self defense shooting.......you can show proof that this person was intent on severe bodily harm or outright killing you. It shows that a judge agreed with your assessment that this was a dangerous person and you had to shoot him before he killed you or others.
    If it is truely a self defense shooting, there will be no trial.




  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    The police report and the restraining order are simply to lay the groundwork and show there's a problem in the first place. It also shows that I'm trying to take care of the problem WITHOUT putting a bullet in his brainpan.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Bookman wrote:
    The police report and the restraining order are simply to lay the groundwork and show there's a problem in the first place. It also shows that I'm trying to take care of the problem WITHOUT putting a bullet in his brainpan.
    You are the problem, as head shots are for idiots that have no business carrying a BB gun much less the real thing. This isn't a movie or a TV show. Head shots are stupid at best for real life.

  21. #21
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    I was speaking figuratively. I always go for center mass. Head shots are okay for the range, but real life is quite a bit different I figure to go for the largest part of the body.

    Edited to remove rudeness.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    If it is truely a self defense shooting, there will be no trial.
    Sorry Bear, but history has shown that in many situations, it takes a trial to prove a person's innocence in a SD shooting. Shouldn't be that way, but it is, far too often.

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    compmanio365 wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    If it is truely a self defense shooting, there will be no trial.
    Sorry Bear, but history has shown that in many situations, it takes a trial to prove a person's innocence in a SD shooting. Shouldn't be that way, but it is, far too often.
    Not in recent history it hasn't. I know of two SD shootings with no charges ever filed. This is since the Washington State Supreme Courts "stand your ground" decision.

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    Regular Member compmanio365's Avatar
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    That is true, things seem to have been better in recent years when it comes to prosecutors filing charges against SD cases. I personally would still rather be safe than sorry when it comes to the possibility of facing an overzealous prosecutor.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    Since it is a recording, definitly get the police involved. +1 to restraining order.
    Yeah, a restraining order has stopped how many guys intent on harming or killing someone? Lets try ZERO! A waste of time and effort.
    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree that it is a waste of time and effort, Bear and here's why. Self-defense is, AFAIK and have been able to determine, even in castle doctrine states, an affirmative defense rather than an absolute defense. In other words, the burden of proving self-defense is on the defendant if an over zealous prosecutor decides to prosecute the case. Having a restraining order, while in and of itself will not, as we know and you pointed out stop the BG from coming after you, it does lay part of the foundation for an affirmative self-defense legal defense. It lays proof that you were concerned about being harmed by the BG and that such concern rose to the level that a judge agreed that there was potential for harm and therefore granted a restraining order. The very fact that you would go through the time and effort to obtain it is evidence that you needed it. The very fact that the BG violated it to get close enough for you to need lethal force shows mal-intent and an illegal act on the BG's part.

    So, while I agree with your first 2 sentences, I disagree with your conclusion on the off chance it would end up in court due to the vagaries of the legal system and the numerous and various prosecutors throughout the country.
    Bob Owens @ Bearing Arms (paraphrased): "These people aren't against violence; they're very much in favor of violence. They're against armed resistance."

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