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Thread: CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    CPL INSTRUCTORS AND OPEN CARRY

    We often hear about CPL instructors telling their students that either open carry is illegal or it’s legal but you will be charged with brandishing. Both are incorrect. I recommend that CPL instructors touch on open carry using or modifying the outline below.

    1) Open carry is legal in Michigan, period.

    2) Having a CPL does not relieve you of your right to open carry; it allows you the choice to conceal your handgun if you wish

    3) A gun in a holster is not brandishing. (AG opinions Opinion No. 7101 February 6, 2002
    ). Brandishing is defined as “1. To wave or flourish menacingly, as a weapon. 2. To display ostentatiously. A menacing or defiant wave or flourish.”[/b]


    [/b]4) Based on two AG opinions and the Michigan State Police a CPL holder can open carry a handgun in the gun free zones listed in 750.234d. (AG OpinionsNo. 7097 January 11, 2002and No. 7097 January 11, 2002 ). (“Your analysis is correct.]Non-CPL pistol free zones do not apply to CPL holders. The CPL pistol free zones only apply to CPL holders carrying a concealed pistol. Therefore, a CPL holder may openly carry a pistol in Michigan's pistol free zones.”Sgt. Thomas Deasy, [/b]Michigan [/b][/b]State [/b]Police Executive Resource Section, (517) 336-6441.) [/b]There is no known case law to support or overturn these opinions[/b]

    5) No local ordinances can ban firearm possession (includes both open and concealed carry (with a CPL) on or in public property due to the 1990 preemption law 750 123.1102. This was upheld by The Michigan Court of Appeals on April 29, 2003; v No. 242237. Any local ordinance that bans firearms on or in public property is illegal. State and Federal laws may apply.

    6) Though disturbing the peace does not deal with firearms, due to the nature of this code, this law has been cited by officers to suppress or discourage lawful open carry. Since a person who is not licensed to carry concealed MUST open carry their firearms on foot in order to avoid criminal charge, nor is there any duty for anyone licensed to conceal their handgun, open carry is not disorderly conduct. The open carrying of firearms is not by itself threatening, nor does it cause a hazardous or physically offensive condition.

    Disturbing the peace deals with any acts in a violent, boisterous, turbulent, quarrelsome, indecent, or disorderly manner, or to use profane, obscene, or vulgar language, or to commit any act, or to do anything to disturb the good order, peace and dignity of the city, its inhabitants or other persons. Disorderly Conduct deals with being intoxicated in a public place and to either endanger directly the safety of another person, or of property, or to act in a manner that causes a public disturbance.

    7) Open carry does not make you a target of crime. There is no creditable evidence that this has every happened to a citizen. Police officers and security guards have been targeted due to the nature of their jobs. There is an abundance of anecdotal evidence that suggests that open carry deters crime. A US Department of justice report found that criminals target those that are or are believed to be unarmed over an armed victim.

    8) Open carry allows for a larger caliber and more rounds. Faster draw. In warm climates and in summer open carry is conducive to a more comfortable carry.

    9) If you open carrya good retention holster is recommended, as well as being aware of your surroundings.

    Ultimately the choice to open or conceal carry is the individuals as there are advantages with both methods.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    As RSO and CPL instructor teaching above two years making no friends in county or local government life gos on . Plus fighting cpl teaching three hour renewal course ! THERE IS NO RENEWAL COURSE !

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    taxwhat wrote:
    As RSO and CPL instructor teaching above two years making no friends in county or local government life gos on . Plus fighting cpl teaching three hour renewal course ! THERE IS NO RENEWAL COURSE !
    No renewal course? What is there just a fee to renew? As I am expired on 2/17/2009.

    Thanks

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    M16a2 wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:
    As RSO and CPL instructor teaching above two years making no friends in county or local government life gos on . Plus fighting cpl teaching three hour renewal course ! THERE IS NO RENEWAL COURSE !
    No renewal course? What is there just a fee to renew? As I am expired on 2/17/2009.

    Thanks
    nvm it wont let me copy and paste it ALL for some reason. Looks like Brian covered it. Here is the link to it anyways.... http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7...0955--,00.html

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    M16a2 wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:
    As RSO and CPL instructor teaching above two years making no friends in county or local government life gos on . Plus fighting cpl teaching three hour renewal course ! THERE IS NO RENEWAL COURSE !
    No renewal course? What is there just a fee to renew? As I am expired on 2/17/2009.

    Thanks
    You do not need a renewal course, never did. That myth was perpetuated by the CPL instructors that madea little cash on it. All you have to do is swear under oath that you have reviewed any new CPL laws and have fired you weapon within the last 6 months. Simple!

    The fee is $105 and is good for 5 years.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Opt-Out Members Mighty's Avatar
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    My CPL instructor didn't come out and say that OC was illegal, but he alluded to it. "If you're CCing, don't let your shirt come up on you and expose your weapon because you'll be arrested." That kind of crap.

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    thanks venator, good info. i probably would have payed for the $75 "refresher" course from the place where i took the initial class. pretty shady, if you ask me.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member Jblack44's Avatar
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    Sounds like most of the CCW/CPL instructors are seeing money leave there pockets when people learn about OC. So if they steer you in the other direction saying that it's illegal they can continue to make there money on the courses.
    "If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous. If you have a gun, what in the hell do you have to be paranoid for." Clint Smith, Director of Thunder Ranch

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    Jblack44 wrote:
    Sounds like most of the CCW/CPL instructors are seeing money leave there pockets when people learn about OC. So if they steer you in the other direction saying that it's illegal they can continue to make there money on the courses.
    Well that is possible, but as the poll on this forum shows about 80% of us that OC have a CPL. There are benefits to getting a CPL, so I would argue that they don't lose much business and could really gain some. We have a couple of people here that are getting there CPL's once they found out they could OC with it as well.

    I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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    Venator wrote:
    Jblack44 wrote:
    Sounds like most of the CCW/CPL instructors are seeing money leave there pockets when people learn about OC. So if they steer you in the other direction saying that it's illegal they can continue to make there money on the courses.
    Well that is possible, but as the poll on this forum shows about 80% of us that OC have a CPL. There are benefits to getting a CPL, so I would argue that they don't lose much business and could really gain some. We have a couple of people here that are getting there CPL's once they found out they could OC with it as well.

    I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    Key words HONEST ,truthful ,and legal ones

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    Venator wrote:
    SNIP: I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    I am inclined to agree. My recent CPL class had 6 students. Out of the 6 of us, FIVE of us were only getting our CPL's to make OC all that much easier.

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    warlockmatized wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    SNIP: I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    I am inclined to agree. My recent CPL class had 6 students. Out of the 6 of us, FIVE of us were only getting our CPL's to make OC all that much easier.

    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.





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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    warlockmatized wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    SNIP: I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    I am inclined to agree. My recent CPL class had 6 students. Out of the 6 of us, FIVE of us were only getting our CPL's to make OC all that much easier.

    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.



    And OC while attending

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    warlockmatized wrote:
    Venator wrote:
    SNIP: I say that OC has helped the instructors.
    I am inclined to agree. My recent CPL class had 6 students. Out of the 6 of us, FIVE of us were only getting our CPL's to make OC all that much easier.

    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.



    Sorry not to be rude . What text will be used ? whom will give sheepskin for what ? Law states HAVE shot firearm in last 6 months , READ and understand firearm laws that may apply. Under penalty of law > go to range GET AND KEEP receipt make copy give to gun board and read at internet or gather info on street .

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    taxwhat wrote:

    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.





    Sorry not to be rude . What text will be used ? whom will give sheepskin for what ? Law states HAVE shot firearm in last 6 months , READ and understand firearm laws that may apply. Under penalty of law > go to range GET AND KEEP receipt make copy give to gun board and read at internet or gather info on street .
    Jan, you are not being rude, but please read the bold red in my post. I am well aware of firearm laws in Michigan that pertain to my daily carry of a handgun. Granted, I may not be as articulant as others here at OCDO, buteven with my 4th grade education I get by one way or the other.

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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    taxwhat wrote:

    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.





    Sorry not to be rude . What text will be used ? whom will give sheepskin for what ? Law states HAVE shot firearm in last 6 months , READ and understand firearm laws that may apply. Under penalty of law > go to range GET AND KEEP receipt make copy give to gun board and read at internet or gather info on street .
    Jan, you are not being rude, but please read the bold red in my post. I am well aware of firearm laws in Michigan that pertain to my daily carry of a handgun. Granted, I may not be as articulant as others here at OCDO, buteven with my 4th grade education I get by one way or the other.
    My point is 50-80 bucks buys a lot of photo copies . My questions still stand I am curious THANK YOU

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    taxwhat wrote:
    My point is 50-80 bucks buys a lot of photo copies . My questions still stand I am curious THANK YOU

    Yep, about 50 - 80 copies. J/K

    I understand now what you are saying. However, maybe fortunately, I'm only around a few people on a weekly basis. Most people I know, friends, coworkers, etc, have absolutely no interest in firearms, especially OC.Most of them would have a nervous breakdown if they seen me with a gun on my side. Actually, they would freak seeing anyone with a gun.

    Anyway, the onlyopportunityI have, if any,to handout fliers is when we have an OC event.


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    SpringerXDacp wrote:
    When my renewal comes around next year I plan on taking a CPL renewal course. I am fully aware that it is not necessary, however, I think it adds to the credibility factor when submitting your application (the process).

    A fewof the renewal coursesthatI'veread aboutvaried from $50-$80. I spent more than that in gas to attend the Grand Rapids event, where only a few people took interest in our cause. IMO, it would be worth it just to hear the BS on OC (brandishing, printing, etc.) that instructors attempt to impregnatestudents with.

    In any event , it would be a good opportunity to educate others on the legalities of OC, especially, if it's a class of 20 or 30 students. Just take a lot of fliers.




    I get what you are saying, serves a couple of purposes, it's good to have a review and shoot, you can reach 20 or so people and a couple of instructors about OC that have an interest in CC, it's not a bad use of your time and money.

    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

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