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Thread: Federal Way Parks

  1. #1
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    Looking at FW muni code


    Chapter 11 Artical III, 11-72


    11-72 Firearms and fireworks. Firearms, fireworks, bows, arrows and sling- shots are prohibited in any park. It is unlawful to shoot, fire or explode any firearms, fireworks, firecracker, torpedo or explosive of any kind or carry any firearms or to shoot or fire any airgun, bows, and arrows, BB gun or use any slingshot in any park. The director of parks may issue permits for use of safe fireworks in specified areas where fire hazards will not be increased and where the use of the fireworks will be under proper supervision and are permitted pursuant to FWCC 8-141. Fireworks displays may be permitted by the director as permitted pursuant to FWCC 8-141. This section shall not prevent establishment in any park of a properly designed archery course, upon receipt or permission from the director. (Ord. No. 91-82, § 1(11), 1-8-91)


    Any takers to write the letter?

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    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    For a little history, see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/8039.html

    City has taken a stance of we don't have to change it, if you don't like it, tuff. I've contacted each city council member, my attorney has contacted the city attorney by mail and phone, all of which have gone unanswered.

    I haven't updated the original thread as there really hasn't been anything new.

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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    Ditto for Kitsap County. Local politicians have no desire to follow State Law. There is not much mere citizens can do.

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    So I am allowed to carry on parks, correct?

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    Campaign Veteran Right Wing Wacko's Avatar
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    Dispite what you see on the books, that regulation has been repealed; not just pre-empted by completely repealed!


    Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

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    Uh, isn't this what the Washington Arms Collectors is for? Given that the gun shows are nothing more than gun stores promoting their full-price wares, wouldn't our WAC dues be better spent fighting such laws?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Right Wing Wacko wrote:
    Dispite what you see on the books, that regulation has been repealed; not just pre-empted by completely repealed!
    I agree with you and stated as such to their legal department.

    The letter from their attorney stated that they wouldn't cite for the weapons violation of their local code but would use it as a basis to require you to leave. Total crap. This dovetails into previous discussions as to whether a municipality can trespass you. Their assertion is that they would. It boils down to are we in a position to fight a trespass charge which would likely have to go through the appeals process.

    It is my thought that this problem is statewide and needs to be addressed through the legislature. If I were to win a battle against Federal Way; can I afford to take on every little jurisdiction with these bad laws on the books?

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    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    Ditto for Kitsap County. Local politicians have no desire to follow State Law. There is not much mere citizens can do.
    FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...

    Although they still have not changed the municipal code...
    10.12.080 Firearms in parks.* It is unlawful to shoot, fire or explode any firearm, firecracker, fireworks, torpedo or explosive of any kind or to carry any firearm or to shoot or fire any air gun, BB gun, bow and arrow or use any slingshot in any park, except the park director may authorize archery, slinging, fireworks and firing of small bore arms at designated times and places suitable for their use.
    (Ord. 6 (1971) § 8, 1971)


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    Gene Beasley wrote:
    For a little history, see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/8039.html

    City has taken a stance of we don't have to change it, if you don't like it, tuff.
    Honestly, it's sentiments from figures of authority like this that make me want to get the State AG (currently Rob McKenna) involved and prosecute them... for what, I'm not sure, but there has to be something they're doing illegal by intentionally ignoring a state law that supersedes a local law.
    B.S. Chemistry UofWA '09
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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    I know that many here have pointed out various Park Department Rules/Regulations that still state firearms are prohibited but does anyone know of any case where someone was detained, arrested, charged, or convicted under any of them?

    Personally, I don't think that most Municipalities will be rushing to change their rules unless someone falls victim to them. Only then will the State and the Courts become involved.

    For myself, I just consider that part of any sign irrelevant and continue on with my business in the Park.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    In an ideal world, the RCW on preemption would specify actual sanctions that would apply to the municipality, department, and individual officer who attempted to enforce repealed-by-preemption laws against you. (Well, OK, in an ideal ideal world, no one would try to do that in the first place.)

    But I think the chances of getting such a change through the legislature at the moment aren't very good, and would argue that college carry, stand-your-ground that specifically precludes civil damages against anyone who was no-billed or acquitted on justifiable self-defense grounds, and several other things are of a higher priority anyway.

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    amlevin wrote:
    I know that many here have pointed out various Park Department Rules/Regulations that still state firearms are prohibited but does anyone know of any case where someone was detained, arrested, charged, or convicted under any of them?

    Personally, I don't think that most Municipalities will be rushing to change their rules unless someone falls victim to them. Only then will the State and the Courts become involved.

    For myself, I just consider that part of any sign irrelevant and continue on with my business in the Park.
    There was that fellow up in Bellingham awhile back that was charged with a pre-empted park code. They dropped the charges but he was arrested and booked on the charges.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    Gene,

    Was your second letter to FW ever responded back too from the Attorney? Was it set into FW city counsel agenda?

    Was either of these sent to the AG ?

    Thanks


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    Regular Member Ajetpilot's Avatar
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    MadHatter66 wrote:
    FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...
    Wow! If that is correct, that is fantastic news.

    However, the Old Mill Park site, http://tinyurl.com/43fpnj,still refers to the general park rules, http://tinyurl.com/4tck2m,that state that firearms are prohibited.


    Miscellaneous: Golf, paint ball, firearms, and radio-controlled aircraft are prohibited.


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    Ajetpilot wrote:
    MadHatter66 wrote:
    FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...
    Wow! If that is correct, that is fantastic news.

    However, the Old Mill Park site, http://tinyurl.com/43fpnj,still refers to the general park rules, http://tinyurl.com/4tck2m,that state that firearms are prohibited.



    Miscellaneous: Golf, paint ball, firearms, and radio-controlled aircraft are prohibited.



    So Military Drones with hellfire missles are banned too I guess, dang it.

    Outlawing toy airplanes, jeeze what a mess we find ourselves in. Its not the Toy Airplanes, its the Toy Pilots that are the problem.


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    I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

    I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?

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    heresolong wrote:
    I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

    I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?
    I think it might be a good idea.I dont think being arrested will be the issue anymore. Ido think that being treaspassed from a Public Park is a reality. This should be taken completly off the books.

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    I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.
    Sounds good. Let us know if you get a response. Do you need others to talk to their representatives as well about an answer to this question?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    heresolong wrote:
    I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

    I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?
    What we were talking about in Virginia was a law that made the city council members individually liable for damages if somebody was persecuted under a preempted ordnance. Tell them that there is no sovereign immunity for their corrupt actions and that cash will flow from their pockets, not from city coffers, and they will sing a different tune.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Regular Member jbone's Avatar
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    A FW Park, What a great place for a meet. Should get media and City Council attention. Not a protest or demostration, just a simpleOC family gathering!
    I’m proudly straight. I'm free to not support Legalization, GLBT, Illegal Aliens, or the Islamization of America.

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    heresolong wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.
    Sounds good. Let us know if you get a response. Do you need others to talk to their representatives as well about an answer to this question?
    So here is the AG's legal responsibility as told by an assistant attorney general. It seems to me that it would take the legislature, city or county councils, or a lawsuit to bring them all into compliance.

    In short, the Office of the Attorney General is the legal advisor and representative of state agencies and designated elected or appointed officials. The Office has no authority to render legal advice to Washington’s other governmental agencies, such as political subdivisions, municipalities, ports, school districts (except county prosecutors). Nor can we direct those entities to comply with state laws, nor undertake enforcement actions against such entities for failure to comply with state laws.
    "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."

    "though I walk through the valley in the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for I know that you are by my side" Glock 23:40

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    joeroket wrote:
    heresolong wrote:
    joeroket wrote:
    I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.
    Sounds good. Let us know if you get a response. Do you need others to talk to their representatives as well about an answer to this question?
    So here is the AG's legal responsibility as told by an assistant attorney general. It seems to me that it would take the legislature, city or county councils, or a lawsuit to bring them all into compliance.

    In short, the Office of the Attorney General is the legal advisor and representative of state agencies and designated elected or appointed officials. The Office has no authority to render legal advice to Washington’s other governmental agencies, such as political subdivisions, municipalities, ports, school districts (except county prosecutors). Nor can we direct those entities to comply with state laws, nor undertake enforcement actions against such entities for failure to comply with state laws.
    The why the hell do they call the AG the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in the state? He obviously does not enforce crap. Is it posible to file charges against the government agency violating the law?

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    Thundar,

    Yep, that's exactly the sort of thing we need. I'm a little less than optimistic that we could <i>get</i> something like that with the current composition of our legislature, however.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Gene Beasley's Avatar
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    Triple Tap wrote on Tue Sep 30th, 2008:
    Was your second letter to FW ever responded back too from the Attorney? Was it set into FW city counsel agenda?

    Was either of these sent to the AG ?
    TT, sorry- I wasn't keeping track of this thread and I should have.

    The second letter (from Mark Knapp) along with his phone calls received no reply - not even acknowledgment of receipt. I sent a similar email to each city council member and not one of them acknowledged or answered it. This took a much more conciliatory tone, offering to work with them to come up with appropriate language. I'm sure they got a laugh out of that. I am sure that this letter did make its way to the city council. We did not send it directly. I did a public record request that yielded no good information. What was interesting was the list of withheld documents. There was a flurry of emails and other documents on and after June 8, 2008. Of note, June 9, 2008 - PI and Times publish stories about Nickels executive order that cited the same cases and logic almost verbatim.

    AG - no, nothing on that front. See the comments from the Port thread. It covers this issue pretty well.

    I see the future of this problem in legislation. Taking on each of these agencies one by one is time consuming and potentially costly. Again, page three of the port thread. For reference, I have a spreadsheet on NWCDL of all muni/county violations of 290 that have online access to their code. That's a lot of work.

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