Federal Way Parks

Triple Tap · Sep 29, 2008

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Looking at FW muni code

Chapter 11 Artical III, 11-72

11-72 Firearms and fireworks. Firearms, fireworks, bows, arrows and sling- shots are prohibited in any park. It is unlawful to shoot, fire or explode any firearms, fireworks, firecracker, torpedo or explosive of any kind or carry any firearms or to shoot or fire any airgun, bows, and arrows, BB gun or use any slingshot in any park. The director of parks may issue permits for use of safe fireworks in specified areas where fire hazards will not be increased and where the use of the fireworks will be under proper supervision and are permitted pursuant to FWCC 8-141. Fireworks displays may be permitted by the director as permitted pursuant to FWCC 8-141. This section shall not prevent establishment in any park of a properly designed archery course, upon receipt or permission from the director. (Ord. No. 91-82, § 1(11), 1-8-91)

Any takers to write the letter?

Gene Beasley · Sep 29, 2008

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For a little history, see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/8039.html

City has taken a stance of we don't have to change it, if you don't like it, tuff. I've contacted each city council member, my attorney has contacted the city attorney by mail and phone, all of which have gone unanswered.

I haven't updated the original thread as there really hasn't been anything new.

Ajetpilot · Sep 29, 2008

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Ditto for Kitsap County. Local politicians have no desire to follow State Law. There is not much mere citizens can do.

Kildars · Sep 29, 2008

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So I am allowed to carry on parks, correct?

Right Wing Wacko · Sep 29, 2008

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Dispite what you see on the books, that regulation has been repealed; not just pre-empted by completely repealed!

Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

deanf · Sep 29, 2008

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Uh, isn't this what the Washington Arms Collectors is for? Given that the gun shows are nothing more than gun stores promoting their full-price wares, wouldn't our WAC dues be better spent fighting such laws?

Gene Beasley · Sep 29, 2008

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Right Wing Wacko wrote:

Dispite what you see on the books, that regulation has been repealed; not just pre-empted by completely repealed!

I agree with you and stated as such to their legal department.

The letter from their attorney stated that they wouldn't cite for the weapons violation of their local code but would use it as a basis to require you to leave. Total crap. This dovetails into previous discussions as to whether a municipality can trespass you. Their assertion is that they would. It boils down to are we in a position to fight a trespass charge which would likely have to go through the appeals process.

It is my thought that this problem is statewide and needs to be addressed through the legislature. If I were to win a battle against Federal Way; can I afford to take on every little jurisdiction with these bad laws on the books?

MadHatter66 · Sep 29, 2008

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Ajetpilot wrote:

Ditto for Kitsap County. Local politicians have no desire to follow State Law. There is not much mere citizens can do.

FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...

Although they still have not changed the municipal code...:banghead:
10.12.080 Firearms in parks.* It is unlawful to shoot, fire or explode any firearm, firecracker, fireworks, torpedo or explosive of any kind or to carry any firearm or to shoot or fire any air gun, BB gun, bow and arrow or use any slingshot in any park, except the park director may authorize archery, slinging, fireworks and firing of small bore arms at designated times and places suitable for their use.
(Ord. 6 (1971) § 8, 1971)

just_a_car · Sep 29, 2008

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Gene Beasley wrote:

For a little history, see http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/8039.html

City has taken a stance of we don't have to change it, if you don't like it, tuff.

Honestly, it's sentiments from figures of authority like this that make me want to get the State AG (currently Rob McKenna) involved and prosecute them... for what, I'm not sure, but there has to be something they're doing illegal by intentionally ignoring a state law that supersedes a local law.

amlevin · Sep 30, 2008

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I know that many here have pointed out various Park Department Rules/Regulations that still state firearms are prohibited but does anyone know of any case where someone was detained, arrested, charged, or convicted under any of them?

Personally, I don't think that most Municipalities will be rushing to change their rules unless someone falls victim to them. Only then will the State and the Courts become involved.

For myself, I just consider that part of any sign irrelevant and continue on with my business in the Park.

kparker · Sep 30, 2008

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In an ideal world, the RCW on preemption would specify actual sanctions that would apply to the municipality, department, and individual officer who attempted to enforce repealed-by-preemption laws against you. (Well, OK, in an ideal ideal world, no one would try to do that in the first place.)

But I think the chances of getting such a change through the legislature at the moment aren't very good, and would argue that college carry, stand-your-ground that specifically precludes civil damages against anyone who was no-billed or acquitted on justifiable self-defense grounds, and several other things are of a higher priority anyway.

joeroket · Sep 30, 2008

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amlevin wrote:

I know that many here have pointed out various Park Department Rules/Regulations that still state firearms are prohibited but does anyone know of any case where someone was detained, arrested, charged, or convicted under any of them?

Personally, I don't think that most Municipalities will be rushing to change their rules unless someone falls victim to them. Only then will the State and the Courts become involved.

For myself, I just consider that part of any sign irrelevant and continue on with my business in the Park.

There was that fellow up in Bellingham awhile back that was charged with a pre-empted park code. They dropped the charges but he was arrested and booked on the charges.

Triple Tap · Sep 30, 2008

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Gene,

Was your second letter to FW ever responded back too from the Attorney? Was it set into FW city counsel agenda?

Was either of these sent to the AG ?

Thanks

Ajetpilot · Sep 30, 2008

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MadHatter66 wrote:

FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...

Wow! If that is correct, that is fantastic news.

However, the Old Mill Park site, http://tinyurl.com/43fpnj,still refers to the general park rules, http://tinyurl.com/4tck2m,that state that firearms are prohibited.

[align=justify]Miscellaneous: Golf, paint ball, firearms, and radio-controlled aircraft are prohibited.[/align]

[align=justify]

[/align]

Triple Tap · Sep 30, 2008

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Ajetpilot wrote:

MadHatter66 wrote:

FWIW...I have actually seen some of the Kitsap Parks that have new signs, and they no longer have the firearms ban on them... Old Mill Park in Silverdale being one... I think I actually have a picture of it somewhere, because I was amazed that they did not mention firearms...

Wow! If that is correct, that is fantastic news.

However, the Old Mill Park site, http://tinyurl.com/43fpnj,still refers to the general park rules, http://tinyurl.com/4tck2m,that state that firearms are prohibited.

[align=justify]Miscellaneous: Golf, paint ball, firearms, and radio-controlled aircraft are prohibited.[/align]

[align=justify]

[/align]
So Military Drones with hellfire missles are banned too I guess, dang it.

Outlawing toy airplanes, jeeze what a mess we find ourselves in. Its not the Toy Airplanes, its the Toy Pilots that are the problem. :banghead:

heresolong · Sep 30, 2008

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I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?

Triple Tap · Sep 30, 2008

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heresolong wrote:

I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?

I think it might be a good idea.I dont think being arrested will be the issue anymore. Ido think that being treaspassed from a Public Park is a reality. This should be taken completly off the books.

joeroket · Sep 30, 2008

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I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.

heresolong · Oct 1, 2008

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joeroket wrote:

I am in the process of trying to get the AG to tell me who has the authority to bring action to a municipality that is not following state law and force compliance if it is not the AG's office.

Sounds good. Let us know if you get a response. Do you need others to talk to their representatives as well about an answer to this question?

Thundar · Oct 1, 2008

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heresolong wrote:

I wonder if a class action lawsuit against the state for failure to enforce the RCW relating to preemption would work. Anyone with a legal background have any ideas here?

I would think that any gun owner who lived in or visited any municipality or county with such laws on the books would have a standing. We all are risking being arrested while enjoying the various parks in the state due to their failure so there is definitely a loss to us. I'm not sure whether you have to actually have been arrested in order to be a party to the lawsuit or is the threat of arrest enough?

What we were talking about in Virginia was a law that made the city council members individually liable for damages if somebody was persecuted under a preempted ordnance. Tell them that there is no sovereign immunity for their corrupt actions and that cash will flow from their pockets, not from city coffers, and they will sing a different tune.

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