Polk County Sherifs response

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BJA wrote:

Dam good letter shotgun! What are you a college english professor or something lol.

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No, I'm just a guy who likes to give Doug something to do with his time. LOL

Thanks Doug!

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After seeing the number of spelling and grammar mistakes in the Sheriff's letter, I have a feeling he won't notice those, Doug.

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Shotgun I assume you stumped him?

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No reply from the Sheriff yet.

(But that's ok, I want him to THINK.)

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Shotguns email definately did something. I received another email from the Sheriff and he did agree to notify his offers. Here is his email. He doesnt really like the idea of open carry. Jimmy

Jimmy:

I agree that you have the legal right to carry open; I still disagree with doing so. It will result in public opinion that I think in the long run will be adverse to people who own firearms and want to pursue concealed carry. I think anyone walking into a bank for instance, has the right to be concerned when they see someone carrying a firearm and not knowing their intent. I think private business has the right to bar anyone from entering, and by open carry, you are going to get businesses to do just that, bar anyone from entering who may be carrying a firearm.

I recognize your right to do so and will explain this to my officers, I just don’t believe it is the prudent action to take and in the over all picture it will hurt the cause of all second amendment proponents.

I obviously could be wrong.

I can not and will not tell my officers to treat every firearm as it is unloaded and safe, that goes against all law enforcement training. Their job is to protect citizens, and they will do so in a manner that is safe for them. Until they know the situation they have the right and obligation to secure the scene and then make a judgment call on weather or not a call has been committed. I assume they will make the right call at that point. I can not guarantee that you be not be ordered to surrender your weapon until they ascertain the entire situation because I can not predict the circumstances that we will be called to.

I believe you have the right to carry but that you also assume some risks in doing so.



Sheriff Tim Moore

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Our/your foot is in the door! Or is it the camel's nose in the tent? In any case, good job!

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Doug Huffman wrote:

Our/your foot is in the door! Or is it the camel's nose in the tent? In any case, good job!

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Thank you but I also have to thank shotgun as I feel his letter to the sheriff helped alot to open his eyes. Im going to notify the Police Cheif and start carrying Monday and see where that goes. I will keep everyone here informed. Thank to all that have been helping me and cheering me on. Jimmy

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jimmyw wrote:

Thank you but I also have to thank shotgun as I feel his letter to the sheriff helped alot to open his eyes. Im going to notify the Police Cheif and start carrying Monday and see where that goes. I will keep everyone here informed. Thank to all that have been helping me and cheering me on. Jimmy

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Jimmy:

If have watched this thread from the beginning, and am an avid supporter of both open and concealed carry but, I did NOT see anywhere in your posts where you mentioned training. Although not required under Wisconsin law, I would strongly encourage you to take a carry course andtalk, at length, with those who carry regularly about things you need to avoid. I also recommend some sort of weapons retention training.

I don't know that I agree with the "risks" term the Sheriff used, but you do take on a considerable responsibility every time you carry. When you carry, you represent ALL of us. Done correctly it makes it much easier for the "next guy" but done incorrectly, it has the potential to, as the Sheriff said, "hurt the cause of all second amendment proponents." You need to be thoughtful and deliberate in all actions.


Good luck, be safe.

Just my $0.02.

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Re training, I disagree. Citizens are presumed responsible and innocent.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMfreekinA$$

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I have not yet received a reply from the Sheriff, maybe he thinks I'm too much of an ass to be worthy of a response. In any event, I don't think his latest communication represents a huge shift in his position. I believe he recognized the legality of open carry but thought that it was ill-advised prior to any emails and it looks like that still is his position. I am at least encouraged that he stated he would remind his deputies that open carry is, in itself, a legal activity.

As far as businesses not welcoming you, okay, that's their right. It's also lost business for them. The sheriff may be overestimating the number of businesses that will respond in that manner, but as OC becomes more commonplace it will certainly become less of a concern to businesses, the general public and to law enforcement.

If you live in Amery chances are you'd more than likely deal directly with that police department than with the county department, so that is good considering the friendlier reception from that department's chief.

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Doug Huffman wrote:

Re training, I disagree. Citizens are presumed responsible and innocent.

Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA KMfreekinA$$

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Doug I wish you would explain your objection to training. Bnh's post did not advocate mandatory training, in fact he mentioned that there is no mandatory training in Wisconsin (although I might mention that there is mandatory gun-related training to obtain a hunting license for people under a certain age.)

Are you opposed to voluntary firearms training? If so, then I will point out that knowledge of the issues and candidates is not required prior to exercising one's right to vote, but I would consider it advisable. Please clarify whether it is training in general to which you object, or simply to mandatory training. If you object to mandatory training prior to being allowed to carry a firearm, then I would side with you-- although at the same time I would much prefer that anyone who handles a firearm has at least voluntarily received a certain amount of competent instruction prior to doing so.

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I object to profiteers and fearmongers. I object to arbiters of reasonableness. I object to arbiters of competent instruction. I object to shotgun-chic gallus snappers.

Do you want me to name names? We have seen over this year past where these objectionable profiteers have led gun rights in Wisconsin. The very best that can be said of them is that they have distracted the gullible.

If someone sees the need for training and desires it that is fine and good. I was a NRA certified pistol instructor as qualification for SC state certification as CWP Instructor. It is bullshiite theater for profiteers selling dispensations from infringement.

There is only a right to vote in a democracy and we live in a constitutional republic with legally limited enfranchisement that must be more restrictive.

Citizens are presumed innocent and responsible.

Do you also advocate competent sex education in schools? That is an OT rhetorical question not desiring a response.

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Pointman, do you really think its fair that just because someone opposes one view of things they completely endorse another? Thats kind of like saying if one is for CCW they hate OC or vice versa, or if they hatecake they love pie(joke). It is possible to have ones position on middle ground between two extremes. And you know full well you attributed some of your comments rather unfairly to Doug, a politicians attack. He objected to profiteers and fear-mongers, how does that translate to supporting the financially irresponsible and delusional? I think we are above such things on this forum.

Jimmy, if you are going to be carrying, call me so I can give you a first hand account of what happened to me. I will PM you my number. You will have a much clearer picture of what to expect(if your unlucky anyway).

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/arbiter

Any person who has the power of judging and determining, or ordaining, without control; one whose power of deciding and governing is not limited.

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Naming names would be Pointless, man.

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After reading all responses I do believe that it would be in my best interest to carry a quality voice recorder and go through a class so at least it might be a positive mark should I ever end up in court. Can anyone tell me where to find a class thats near me? Im in North western Wisconsin.

I want to thank each and every one of you for your help and support. Jimmy

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http://www.permittocarry.us/

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jimmyw wrote:

After reading all responses I do believe that it would be in my best interest to carry a quality voice recorder and go through a class so at least it might be a positive mark should I ever end up in court. Can anyone tell me where to find a class thats near me? Im in North western Wisconsin.

I want to thank each and every one of you for your help and support. Jimmy

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When carrying a gun you want to stack the odds in your favor. The same goes for if you ever have to use a gun. You can certainly do this by carrying a recorder and taking a class. Though you don't need to do either of these to exercise your right lawfully.

Also, a WI person who is OCing and has a permit from another state can be shown to be a "certified good guy" in the eyes of an LEO. Many LEOs in this state seem very proud of all their firearms training and some encounters I have heard about an LEO may say "I go through 20 hours a year in training and you've just taken a 3-hour class like anybody can..." Also the more liberal the person, the more they want to see the state itself certify something or somebody as good.

Basically, take any and all steps you feel necessary to stack the odds in your favor. Also, it would be prudent to read up about LEO encounters, while memorizing the following phrases and when to use them...

"I do not consent to any search"
"I do not consent to any siezure"
"I have nothing to say about that"
"Am I being detained or am I free to go?"

One who exercises his RKBA rights in WI must be prepared to exercise all of his other rights such as 4th and 5th amendments.

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jimmyw wrote:

Shotguns email definately did something. I received another email from the Sheriff and he did agree to notify his offers. Here is his email. He doesnt really like the idea of open carry. Jimmy

Jimmy:

I agree that you have the legal right to carry open; I still disagree with doing so. It will result in public opinion that I think in the long run will be adverse to people who own firearms and want to pursue concealed carry. I think anyone walking into a bank for instance, has the right to be concerned when they see someone carrying a firearm and not knowing their intent. I think private business has the right to bar anyone from entering, and by open carry, you are going to get businesses to do just that, bar anyone from entering who may be carrying a firearm.

I recognize your right to do so and will explain this to my officers, I just don’t believe it is the prudent action to take and in the over all picture it will hurt the cause of all second amendment proponents.

I obviously could be wrong.

I can not and will not tell my officers to treat every firearm as it is unloaded and safe, that goes against all law enforcement training. Their job is to protect citizens, and they will do so in a manner that is safe for them. Until they know the situation they have the right and obligation to secure the scene and then make a judgment call on weather or not a call has been committed. I assume they will make the right call at that point. I can not guarantee that you be not be ordered to surrender your weapon until they ascertain the entire situation because I can not predict the circumstances that we will be called to.

I believe you have the right to carry but that you also assume some risks in doing so.



Sheriff Tim Moore

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Sounds to me like the good sherrif needs to be pressed on what legal options to O.C. exist. Is he actually endorsing illegal C.C. or not? Get him to state a solid opinion. Then send copies of his correspondence to all the D.A.'s and other authority in his chain of command.