Questions regarding OC/CC and how they interact

Humanphibian · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

I posted this in "Texas" but figured I would put it here to see how it works in other states.

Please forgive my ignorance on the OC subject, but I have been a CHL holder for over a decade now. I have a question regarding "OC" and its actual legal definition (or at least what is being proposed by the bill being drafted).

I understand the arguments that OC is a basic right, that 44 other states allow it, and that CC in the TX heat and humidity is hard on equipment and body.

What I would like to know is how the proposed OC rulas and CC rules will blend so to speak. Say for example if I am wearing jeans and a polo type shirt. If I have my shirt tail untucked and carrying in an OWB holster that CAN be discerned as a handgun by a reasonable person, yet the gun is actually covered....would this onlybe a violation of CC law,...or OC law as well?

Is it possible to write (or have, in the case of states other than TX)legislation that would seamlessly meld the two together? Would it be feasable to enact something along the lines of a "Defensive Handgun Permit" that would allow handgun carry in whatever manner the bearer sees fit?

just bouncin stuff around in my head....feel free to smack it back my way

American Rattlesnake · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

Humanphibian wrote:

I posted this in "Texas" but figured I would put it here to see how it works in other states.

Please forgive my ignorance on the OC subject, but I have been a CHL holder for over a decade now. I have a question regarding "OC" and its actual legal definition (or at least what is being proposed by the bill being drafted).

I understand the arguments that OC is a basic right, that 44 other states allow it, and that CC in the TX heat and humidity is hard on equipment and body.

What I would like to know is how the proposed OC rulas and CC rules will blend so to speak. Say for example if I am wearing jeans and a polo type shirt. If I have my shirt tail untucked and carrying in an OWB holster that CAN be discerned as a handgun by a reasonable person, yet the gun is actually covered....would this onlybe a violation of CC law,...or OC law as well?

Is it possible to write (or have, in the case of states other than TX)legislation that would seamlessly meld the two together? Would it be feasable to enact something along the lines of a "Defensive Handgun Permit" that would allow handgun carry in whatever manner the bearer sees fit?

just bouncin stuff around in my head....feel free to smack it back my way

Good questions, sir. I cannot speak to the question about specific legislation going on in TX right now, but I think I can shed some light on how OC and CC work together.

In most states if you are wearing a pistol OWB and it is covered by a shirt, it is considered concealed from view. This would be a violation of a CC law if the individual was not in possession of a license or permit to carry concealed.

Is it possible to write legislation to meld CC and OC together? I think that is certainly the case. One example would be to remove restrictions on OC (as is the case in most states where it is legal) and have the option of a concealed permit. Then the carrier can carry concealed if they are so inclined (with the permit) or they have the option of carrying openly without a permit. This is the way it works in most of the United States.

I hope this answers some of your questions.
Regards,
AR

Humanphibian · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

Yea....TX is pretty specific in regards to concealment and "Printing". Your CCW cannot be "Openly Discernable to a reasonable person". Most casual observers have no idea, especially with all the PDA's and MP3 players riding on belts these days. You can get away with a little printing and not raise eyebrows.

But if you expose, say the bottom of an OWB holster....at that point do you move (seamlessly) from CC to OC, or have you violated statues governing both types of carry.

Leader · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

In MI, open carry is legal . That means anyone that can legaly own a firearm, can carry it most places openly (Not covered by clothing) without any license or permit. No classes are required and no fees are charged.

If you have a permit to carry a concealed handgun, that means you *MAY* cover it and you *MAY* get into or on a moter vehicle with it. Printing is a non issue as is flashing. . Go ahead & bend over to reach something on the floor or up to something on the top shelf at the store. No problem.

By the way, you can't be charged with violateing the open carry law as we don't have one. We just don't have a law that says it is against any law so you are allowed to do it.

Humanphibian · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

Are there any requirements that the weapon must be fully uncovered and completely open? I see pics of persons in OC states and they always seem to have garments tucked in behind their carry gun.

I am wondering if the CC/OC states allow for one to just throw a t-shirt on over their owb rig and go about their day without worring about being fully "Open" to view, or fully concealed.

I was told that work is being put toward TX OC efforts that will remove requirement for CHL holders to conceal....thus allowing licensed OC,...by CHL holders. It seems strange, but it will allow formandatory training as a requirement for OC.This will probably be far easier for the public at large to accept vs. just pulling the trigger (pun intended) and letting any personnon prohibited from owing a handgun to openly carry it in public.

Leader · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

Humanphibian wrote:

Are there any requirements that the weapon must be fully uncovered and completely open? I see pics of persons in OC states and they always seem to have garments tucked in behind their carry gun.

I am wondering if the CC/OC states allow for one to just throw a t-shirt on over their owb rig and go about their day without worring about being fully "Open" to view, or fully concealed.

I was told that work is being put toward TX OC efforts that will remove requirement for CHL holders to conceal....thus allowing licensed OC,...by CHL holders. It seems strange, but it will allow formandatory training as a requirement for OC.This will probably be far easier for the public at large to accept vs. just pulling the trigger (pun intended) and letting any personnon prohibited from owing a handgun to openly carry it in public.

Actually we don't really know. Since we don't have a law allowing open carry, we don't have a definition of it either. We do have an A.G. opinion that a gun in a holster is NOT concealed.

If you have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) Yes, you can just slip an old t-shirt over your gun & be legal. Of course you are legal even if the shirt doesn't cover it. In our conservation laws, we are warned that if your jacket covers a handgun, it is concealed & you need a CPL. Rule of thumb... If I your 70 year old neighbor lady can see it and knows it's a gun, it *SHOULD* pass as open carry.

Grapeshot · Sep 30, 2008

imported post

Laws on the subject do vary considerably from state to state and if traveling it is definitely worth the time to familiarize yourself with the applicable laws.

The shirt or jacket tucked behind the butt of a CCd handgun to move it to OC is referred to as the Virginia Tuck. In Va. it is illegal to CC in an establishment that serves alcohol but perfectly legal to OC - go figure.

I'm not sure that many here would promote a license for OC and CC ( I know there are a few). The right to carry is too sacred and already restricted more than it should be.

No printing is another don't scare the sheeple law. Thank goodness I don't have to hide my fire extinguisher from the nervous nellies.

Yata hey

Grapeshot · Oct 1, 2008

imported post

NavyLT wrote:

snip.....
The ideal melding of OC/CC laws is almost what Washington State has: anyone can open carry - with or without permit. It is an OPTION to conceal if you have the permit. Now if they would just do away with the requirement for the permit to carry loaded in a vehicle....

This is essentially what we enjoy here in Virginia. 18 and over to OC including in a vehicle and 21 to acquire a CHP that does not require the holder to conceal.

Yata hey

Task Force 16 · Oct 2, 2008

imported post

Are there any requirements that the weapon must be fully uncovered and completely open? I see pics of persons in OC states and they always seem to have garments tucked in behind their carry gun.

This would depend on state law where you saw this. Some states do not require a permit or lisence toOC, but do require one for CC. In thosestates, one would need tocarry in a full exposed manner, without a permit. I believe Ky is this way. But if you have the CCP in Ky you can carry either way.

In Tn, we have to get a HCP (Handgun Carry Permit) to carry either way. So it doesn't seem that it would matter ifyour firearm is fully exposed, partially exposed, or fully concealed, as long as you have a HCP to carry a handgun on your person.

Best thing to do is check the statutes in the states you are in or going to visit.

I am wondering if the CC/OC states allow for one to just throw a t-shirt on over their owb rig and go about their day without worring about being fully "Open" to view, or fully concealed.

Depends on how each states statutes read.

WCrawford · Oct 6, 2008

imported post

I have not looked into any of the proposed legislation for Texas' open carry, but I would hope that any law they pass would allow a person with a carry permit (however they name it) to carry openly or concealed as they wish without trouble.

My only experience with OC is in Tennessee, and with the HCP we have, there are no legal problems with open carry, partial concealment or total concealment or even printing.

Places with unlicensed open carry (and hopefully Texas will be one), should not (in my opinion) make it criminal to accidentally partially conceal a weapon. Nor should flap style holsters be considered concealment (I have read a report of this happening).

As far as I'm concerned, a holster should be legally defined as a part of the firearm, when a firearm is holstered, for purposes of not being charged with concealing. Conversely, an empty holster should never be considered anything more than any other piece of clothing.

Grapeshot · Oct 6, 2008

imported post

WCrawford wrote:

snip.......
As far as I'm concerned, a holster should be legally defined as a part of the firearm, when a firearm is holstered, for purposes of not being charged with concealing. Conversely, an empty holster should never be considered anything more than any other piece of clothing.

This is as it should be.

Now I know that an empty holster is empty but if you are wearing an empty flap holster, are you concealing your lack of a handgun? :lol:

Makes me want to go out and buy a flap hoster just to wear at certain select events - like Danibus's next court hearing........I know that might not be wise but there would be other opportunities.

Yata hey

Sonora Rebel · Oct 6, 2008

imported post

Heh... I have (and have worn)six types of 'flap' holsters, two of which fully enclose the handgun. (P-38 and Makarov). Due to the obvious graphic shape of the holsters, there's very little doubt as to what they were intended to encompass/carry. Three of these are M1902 types, a Bianchi UM-84 and an 1860's cavalry holster. The UM-84's 'flap' is detachable (thumb break retention strap added). I have NEVER had a LEO question me for an AZ CWP (I have one) when wearing any of these while OCing.

I have some question about this 'shirt tail out' fashion tho. Are most people actually gettin' that fat, or is sloppy the current fashion? If y'all'd tuck yer shirt tail in like yer momma taught ya... Ya wouldn't have any question about weather or not your pistol is concealed or not. Then... there's the gunbelt... the real ones. You know... with the holster 'n bullet loops or mag pouches attached? All this IWB/OWB stuff is silly if you OC.

CC is (to me) a PITA!

WCrawford · Oct 6, 2008

imported post

Sonora Rebel wrote:

Heh... I have (and have worn)six types of 'flap' holsters, two of which fully enclose the handgun. (P-38 and Makarov). Due to the obvious graphic shape of the holsters, there's very little doubt as to what they were intended to encompass/carry. Three of these are M1902 types, a Bianchi UM-84 and an 1860's cavalry holster. The UM-84's 'flap' is detachable (thumb break retention strap added). I have NEVER had a LEO question me for an AZ CWP (I have one) when wearing any of these while OCing.

Given some of the stories from GA, PA, and VA, I would not put it past an ill-informed LEO or anti LEO from charging someone for carrying concealed in a flap holster.

Sonora Rebel · Oct 7, 2008

imported post

Which begs the question... if they consider that concealed... how'd they determine you'd be heeled if they 'didn't see it'?

"Skuze me sir... but your gun's 'concealed' there in plain sight. :uhoh: I'm gonna haf'ta lock you up for that." :X

MORONS!:cuss:

... And they think they're doin' their job? They think the public is being served with this kind'a nonsense?

MSgt G · Oct 7, 2008

imported post

WCrawford wrote:

Sonora Rebel wrote:

Heh... I have (and have worn)six types of 'flap' holsters, two of which fully enclose the handgun. (P-38 and Makarov). Due to the obvious graphic shape of the holsters, there's very little doubt as to what they were intended to encompass/carry. Three of these are M1902 types, a Bianchi UM-84 and an 1860's cavalry holster. The UM-84's 'flap' is detachable (thumb break retention strap added). I have NEVER had a LEO question me for an AZ CWP (I have one) when wearing any of these while OCing.

Given some of the stories from GA, PA, and VA, I would not put it past an ill-informed LEO or anti LEO from charging someone for carrying concealed in a flap holster.

In Georgia we have a Georgia Firemans License which allows you to carry open or concealed. Basically the same thing you have in Tennessee.

Grapeshot · Oct 7, 2008

imported post

MSgt G wrote:

In Georgia we have a Georgia Firemans License which allows you to carry open or concealed. Basically the same thing you have in Tennessee.

Click to expand...

In Georgia and Tennessee you can carry your fireman? Why not a policeman?

Seriously, what is a "Firemans License?

Yata hey

Sonora Rebel · Oct 7, 2008

imported post

I have a fire bottle in the truck... but I don't carry it. Maybe I need a permit?

"The Right to Keep and Bear Fire Extinguishers shall not be infringed!" :cuss:

The OUTRAGE! How dare they... We need to form OCFBDO! Get in yer Turn-Outs... boots... helmet... more clanky belt stuff.

Task Force 16 · Oct 7, 2008

imported post

Grapeshot wrote:

MSgt G wrote:

In Georgia we have a Georgia Firemans License which allows you to carry open or concealed. Basically the same thing you have in Tennessee.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

In Georgia and Tennessee you can carry your fireman? Why not a policeman?

Seriously, what is a "Firemans License?

Yata hey

OK, looks like we're going to ahve to review the word rules .

#1 - All words should be considered loaded at all times.

#2 - Never trust spell check when it saysa word is spelled correctly. You may have loaded the wrong word. Always double check to be sure.

#3 - Use of wrong words can lead to serious ribbing.

MSgt G, get down, give me 50. Make 'em Airborne, too.

Questions regarding OC/CC and how they interact

Humanphibian

New member

American Rattlesnake

Regular Member

Humanphibian

New member

Leader

Regular Member

Humanphibian

New member

Leader

Regular Member

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran

WCrawford

Regular Member

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member

WCrawford

Regular Member

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member

MSgt G

Regular Member

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member

Task Force 16

Campaign Veteran