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I reckon it was bound to happen...

Thundar

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Tess wrote:
VCDL President wrote:
Actually, you did have to show the officer both your CHP and ID on demand, since you admitted to carrying concealed to him.

True you have to show CHP and photo ID; it doesn't have to bea driver license, though.

Do not give your photo ID or CHP to an officer. You must only display them if demanded. I have a plastic badge cover and neck badge system. Placing these in the open is displaying them. If they want the information they can look at the documents you are displaying and write down the info. Do not let yourself be temporarily detained by LEO by letting LEO hold your documents. There is no legal authority for LEOs to do so for concealed carry.

Cite: Code of VA 18.2 308 H - The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.

Obviously you are correct, a drivers license is not required. Any state issued photo ID, DOD ID or US Passport. Note that there is no requirement for the ID to be current either. Many old DOD dependant ID cards were issued without any SSN. Dig out that keepsake from 35 years ago.
 

sportwinger

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We should all remember this Wal mart store policy is that associates. that are working are not suppose to call police themselves for anything only management is to call so if this happens find out who called let manger know.
 

DrMark

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Thundar wrote:
Do not give your photo ID or CHP to an officer. You must only display them if demanded. I have a plastic badge cover and neck badge system. Placing these in the open is displaying them. If they want the information they can look at the documents you are displaying and write down the info. Do not let yourself be temporarily detained by LEO by letting LEO hold your documents. There is no legal authority for LEOs to do so for concealed carry.

Cite: Code of VA 18.2 308 H - The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the United States Department of Defense or United States State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.
Have you had a chance to try this approach, and if so, how'd it work out?
 

Grapeshot

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Let your recorder therefore be the constant companion of your walks. Never think of taking just a pen with you. (My apologies to Thomas Jefferson.)

It is an unfortunate fact that you never know when you are going to need the protection that having a recorder affords. Better to carry and not need.......

Yata hey
 

bnkrazy

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Good advice. Yesterday I tested out a new recorder I got a few weeks ago. I'm pleased with the quality, although carrying it in the same pocket as my cell phone makes it sound as if I have a peg leg. *clink* *clink* *clink* *clink* :) Once stopped, the sound quality is great.
 

Grapeshot

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bnkrazy wrote:
Good advice. Yesterday I tested out a new recorder I got a few weeks ago. I'm pleased with the quality, although carrying it in the same pocket as my cell phone makes it sound as if I have a peg leg. *clink* *clink* *clink* *clink* :) Once stopped, the sound quality is great.
Some recorders fit nicely in cell phone cases or folding knife carriers - try the generic nylon type - it works for me.

Yata hey
 

bnkrazy

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That's a good idea. I think they may even make a belt clip or case for it now that you mention it. It's a Sony, and most of them have the same form factor.
 

Grapeshot

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Wonder whether or not we should think about carrying a BUR in case our primary recorder fails or is confiscated. :p

There are those that say the recording should be done discretely - recorder not obvious. Then again, I have seen the benefits in "presenting" the device for all to see. It is wise to become thoroughly familiar with the functions thereof so as not to fumble and lose something important when it counts.

Yata hey

PS - The Olympus VN-4100PC works well - sorry link failed


 

bnkrazy

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Actually, my cell phone has a video camera on it, so I used to just plan on turning that on (to grab the audio off of later), so I guess I technically do have a BUR, even if it is a bit cumbersome to work with compared to a real recorder.

I bought this one specifically because it has a recording mode where it will only record when it can pick up something loud enough to record. It also has multiple sensitivity settings so I can adjust it to filter out a certain level of background noise and not record that. Then, I turn it on and leave it running all day. Since it only records when it can actually pick up sound, it doesn't waste space and I don't have to go cutting out dead spots. The software that came with it is pretty nice for quickly searching through the recordings as well.

The batteries seem to last about 3 days of continuous recording, and it uses AAAs so I have some rechargables for it. I'm satisfied for the moment.
 

John Pierce

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They never responded to my letter either. :(



VCDL President wrote:
Actually, you did have to show the officer both your CHP and ID on demand, since you admitted to carrying concealed to him.

This reminds me that the Town Attorney never got back to me about that damned illegal sign :cuss:

Yes - a good chance VCDL will be visiting Wytheville. Can you verify the sign is still up?
 

Grapeshot

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jpierce wrote:
They never responded to my letter either. :(

VCDL President wrote:
Actually, you did have to show the officer both your CHP and ID on demand, since you admitted to carrying concealed to him.

This reminds me that the Town Attorney never got back to me about that damned illegal sign :cuss:

Yes - a good chance VCDL will be visiting Wytheville. Can you verify the sign is still up?
It would seem that a personal visit to him is in order ....mit recorder.

Anybody in the area up for it?

Yata hey
 

peter nap

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jpierce wrote:
They never responded to my letter either. :(



VCDL President wrote:
Actually, you did have to show the officer both your CHP and ID on demand, since you admitted to carrying concealed to him.

This reminds me that the Town Attorney never got back to me about that damned illegal sign :cuss:

Yes - a good chance VCDL will be visiting Wytheville. Can you verify the sign is still up?
I did an FOI request about Bills incident. Let's see if they respond to that on time.
 

peter nap

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Bill in VA wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
It would seem that a personal visit to him is in order ....mit recorder.

Anybody in the area up for it?

Yata hey

Sure. I'm in. :)

I've got to say though, I'm surprised at all the attention this has drawn on the boards. I figured I'd post my little incident, one or two folks would make a short response and the thread would wander off into the sunset of page 3. I had no idea anyone would file an FOIA request or talk of travelling all the way down here, particularly since no one's been arrested or unlawfully detained (AFAIK.) I wasn't disarmed or even patted down. Other than feeling a bit insulted when told to carry a smaller gun*, and dealing with a cop who carried a large chip on his shoulder and misquoted a law to me it wasall buta non-issue, with the intial encounter lasting four, maybe five minutes, tops.

I've got to say in the Wytheville PD's defense, with this one time, what few other times I've dealt with their officers, they've been pretty professional and courteous. And the one and onlytime I was stopped wasfor an expiredtown sticker. It was right in front of the bank, he let me go with a warningwhen I showed him the chit for the new one and told him I was depositing my paycheck and then off to the town offices to pay my water bill and buy the sticker. (I was and I did.) I remember thinking how odd it was that he didn't even call in my tags or driver's license. OTOH, it may not be a bad idea to flood the town with OC'ers for a day.

Taking Grapeshot's advice, I have drafted a letter to the Chief of Police about Officer Clemmons' attitude and actions, but I figured I'd wait until Tuesday night after Lions Club to talk with a fellow Lion and friend of mine, SheriffDoug (the elected sheriff, not a deputy), about the incident and to find out a little bit about the personality of Chief Ayers, the town'sChief of Police.

Anyways, thanks for the support guys, and thanks too, Peter, for your help in the audio file.



*I was carrying aCZ82 (in IWB holster, with only the grip and hammervisible.) Granted, it's bigger than my Model 36 or my Walther PP, but I always considered the CZ 82 and 83 to be on the smallish size of the scale.
I got the FOI Bill. I'll talk to you about it next week. Deer season starts Saturday and Depending on how the hunting is, I'll be back sometime next week.;)

Listening to the dispatcher and seeing the reports, I think with a fgew exceptions, most of the problem was with Walmart's complaint.
 

Mainsail

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He approached me and asked if I was carrying a firearm and I replied "yes." He then asked for my CCW, which I produced and then asked for my driver's license. I replied that I wasn't required to produce my driver's license (as I was producing it anyways)but would ID myself for them. At that point Officer Clemmons grew belligerent (and the wife started to get panicky) and started talking about handcuffs and arrest (while he had possession of my driver's license.) I dropped the matter of the driver's license as he proceeded to call me in..."Can I get a 'wanted check' on a white male..."

I think most of us that have been ‘detained’ have felt this apprehension. We sometimes forget that the police are not talking to us because they enjoy a friendly conversation; neither do they want to do us any favors. When they start talking about handcuffs or arrest, they either genuinely do not know the law (unlikely) or they are disappointed at your lack of anxiety of them and their authority.

This is based on my (too many) experiences with law enforcement officers:

When you don’t respond properly to their low level intimidation, they may take it up a notch at a time until one of two things happen; you become compliant, or they reach a line in the sand they don’t want to cross. Of course, they also have the option of just letting it go, and hopefully that’s what will happen, but there are times when they may want to force compliance. To do that they use intimidation.

The first level of intimidation is presence. They approach you and stand nearer to you than you may be comfortable with, one will likely flank you and stand in your blind spot, both will have their hands in front of them at the ready position. They know they’re embarrassing you in front of your significant other and the general public, that’s part of the plan. 95% of the population will immediately respond to these actions with apprehension and compliance. When you don’t, the officer may suspect you are mentally unbalanced or a lawyer (or both).

The next level is the demand for identification. 95% of the population believes that you must obey any order given by a police officer. If you refuse or otherwise display a lack of appropriate trepidation for their authority, they have two paths to take; take the whole thing further, or appeal to your desire to be helpful and your desire end the encounter quickly. The second path usually involves dialog like, “Look, I don’t want to arrest you, you seem like a good guy, just give me your ID and we can get out of here.” This is a bluff. If they could arrest you – they would. They aren’t paid, and they don’t get bullet statements for their performance reports, by doing favors, but by making arrests. You can certainly be polite when you refuse their requests/demands, thus playing along with their whole “friendly” nonsense, which lets them know that tactic isn’t working on you. In my case, the officer used “friendly repetition” and asked repeatedly, even throwing in a personal favor to further entice me to comply. (He tried to get me to surrender my CPL so he could check the expiration date for me. What a guy.) In the case cited above, the poster was complying but also verbally objecting at the same time, so the officer had to regain the high ground by taking it up a notch.

This is where the officer gets into dangerous territory because he’s hoping that he will find something to justify his actions, up to and including this point in time, or hoping he can BS his way out if he’s ever called to the mat over the incident. Up to this point, his supervisors will probably back his actions, even if his actions weren’t completely legal. The rules of Terry are easily overlooked when a handgun is involved. You don’t have to agree with that, just understand the reality. This is why it’s so important to have a witness, preferably an audio or video recording. The officer is standing on the line in the sand now; he can walk away or cross over. It’s very hard to walk away, it’s a pride or ego thing. If he decides to cross the line, he will probably handcuff you and take your identification. Under the law, he can only pat you down for the presence of weapons during a Terry seizure. How does a wallet feel like a weapon? Well, they can always claim that a razor blade is easily concealed in a wallet, and your wallet is easy to reach even while cuffed. Expect to be verbally berated and lectured. He wants you to be amenable, he wants to hear that you agree with his position that you conceal or not carry in that place. Meanwhile, his partner is running your name and possibly the serial number on your gun. They’re fishing at this point, hoping that something will give them justification for this whole event. That’s illegal, but it’s all they have. They don’t care that the prosecutor won’t press charges, or if he does that it will get thrown out in court, they need a reason. When you come back clean, he can either let you go with a stern warning while implying the whole thing was for your benefit, or move up to the next rung.

Arrest is pretty rare actually. If you’ve held out this long and they decide to arrest you, they either believe they’re right (again, very unlikely) or they’re trying to teach you a lesson. The lesson has nothing to do with your handgun, and everything to do with teaching you to respect their authority.

So, how does one prevail when the scenario begins to become apparent? Where does one decide to get off the ladder - to tuck tail and comply?

First, remember that arrest is very rare in any of the anchor states (PA VA WA UT NV AZ etc) where OC is established. Second, KNOW the laws in your state and KNOW your rights. Study Terry stops as well as what the limitations are on the police if you are stopped, detained, or arrested. Confidence is your best tool. Remember, if they could arrest you – they would. They wouldn’t waste time giving you a stern lecture, they would talk to you enough to get you to incriminate yourself and then just slap the cuffs on.

We shouldn’t see so many posts in these forums where the conversation with the police officers are so long. It’s futile to argue with them! They are not going to “learn” anything from you, even if you have the entire volume of firearms laws printed and in your pocket.

The FIRST thing out of your mouth in any police encounter (that you didn’t initiate by calling them) should be, “Am I being detained?” Everything hinges on the answer to that question. The rules and limits are different for a simple conversation, a detainment, and an arrest. You need to establish, right from the start, what the officer is doing so you know what your obligations and the officer’s limitations are.

Remember, the officer can only legally seize you if he has reasonable articulable suspicion that you are involved in a crime. He cannot rely on you giving him the articulable part during the conversation; he has to have that first. If you are not being detained, politely wish the officer a nice day and WALK AWAY. If the officer says yes, that he or she is detaining you, immediately ask, “For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?” There is, after all, the possibility that their actions are justified and there is a reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a crime. If you are being justifiably detained and you can help the officer, do so. If a guy wearing the same color shirt as you just robbed the 7-11, your cooperation can help the officer get back to looking for the real culprit.

If they cannot articulate a real crime for which they suspect your involvement, you need to begin objecting to their seizure. I say “real crime” because I once was told that I was being detained “because you’re carrying a gun”. Well, that’s not, all by itself, a crime. Feel free to point that out while you ask for a supervisor. If the law in your state does not require you to produce a concealed weapon permit or license when you are not carrying concealed; don’t. Are you worried he may arrest you or cite you for not doing so? Eh, so what. This is why it’s important to KNOW the law. It would be best if the supervisor arrives and defuses the situation before it comes to arrest, but don’t be so intimidated by the possibility that you waive your other rights. If they’re foolish enough to actually arrest you, STOP TALKING. From the point they tell you you’re under arrest, say absolutely nothing other than the information they need for your booking sheet (name, address, etc.) until you receive competent legal advice. It’s unlikely it will come to that though. Think about it, the officer is so antagonized that he’s being verbally abusive to you, but he’s willing to “do you a favor” by not arresting you if you would just comply. Recognize it for what it is; a bluff.
 

Sheriff

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Mainsail wrote:
The FIRST thing out of your mouth in any police encounter (that you didn’t initiate by calling them) should be, “Am I being detained?”
First off, I absolutely agree with every word you have said. But I also think it's pretty important to mention that the question "am I being detained" is often looked upon as "contempt of cop" by some of these new rookies who grew up watching COPS on TV. Some rookies go ballistic when you start talking like an attorney. You have challenged his or herauthority in being up in your face asking questions. In most cases it's nothing but downhill from here. So be prepared for the steep slope.

This reply is in no way meant to say that some veteran officers with 20 to 25 years on the job don't often have the same attitude as well.

I read a story today where a veteran New York police Lt. committed suicide after realizing an order that hehad given one of his troops resulted in the death of a citizen. The order given by this Lt. was totally against department policy. I admire the officer for this. But let me explain.... I don't admire his talking of his own life, I admire the fact that he basically admitted he had done something wrong and caused a citizen to be killed. A really sad situation. I guess the point being -- how many cops ever admit doing anything wrong? In open carry cases they will say they received a call and had to respond. That is their defense. But they won'tever admit they made unlawful arrests once they got there.
 
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