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Thread: Tony Oliva Hearing, Thur 2 OCT - Preempted Pittsburgh Ordinance Against Open Carry at Issue!

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    Come attend this if you can: 2 OCT at 8AM in Pittsburgh at 660 First Ave. PittsburghMunicipal Court - Second Floor.

    There should be gun loackers for you per state law. The man in question, Tony Oliva, Army veteran andwho ran for mayor of Pittsburgh last year as the Libertarian Candidate, was charged in violation of state law for mere open carry on foot in Pittsburgh.

    --

    607.06 CARRYING OF OPERABLE FIREARMS PROHIBITED.

    No person shall carry in any vehicle or concealed or unconcealed on or about his person except when on his or her land or in his or her own abode or fixed place of business any firearm; provided that this section shall not apply to:

    (a)Those persons specifically exempted under 18 P.S. Sec. 6106(b)(1-10); or

    (b)Any person issued a valid license to the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act when carrying the type of weapon for which such license was issued.

    (Ord. 11-1980, eff. 7-25-80; Am. Ord. 30-1993, eff. 12-9-93)

    Since I was open carrying and refused to show my LTCF to the officer he gave me this citation. Considering that the City of Pittsburgh CANNOT prohibit the unconcealed carrying of a firearm because the State does not prohibit it (save forPhilladelphia), I shouldn't have any problem winning this case.

    I don't have a scanner at the moment or else I would show you the summons.

    And for those of you who haven't read PA's firearm pre-emption (and for all you LEO lurkers who like to read what I write online) here it is:

    § 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and
    ammunition.
    (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may
    in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession,
    transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition
    components when carried or transported for purposes not
    prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.

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    Mike wrote:
    Come attend this if you can: 2 OCT at 8AM in Pittsburgh at 660 First Ave. PittsburghMunicipal Court - Second Floor.

    There should be gun loackers for you per state law. The man in question, Tony Oliva, Army veteran andwho ran for mayor of Pittsburgh last year as the Libertarian Candidate, was charged in violation of state law for mere open carry on foot in Pittsburgh.

    --

    607.06 CARRYING OF OPERABLE FIREARMS PROHIBITED.

    No person shall carry in any vehicle or concealed or unconcealed on or about his person except when on his or her land or in his or her own abode or fixed place of business any firearm; provided that this section shall not apply to:

    (a)Those persons specifically exempted under 18 P.S. Sec. 6106(b)(1-10); or

    (b)Any person issued a valid license to the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act when carrying the type of weapon for which such license was issued.

    (Ord. 11-1980, eff. 7-25-80; Am. Ord. 30-1993, eff. 12-9-93)

    Since I was open carrying and refused to show my LTCF to the officer he gave me this citation. Considering that the City of Pittsburgh CANNOT prohibit the unconcealed carrying of a firearm because the State does not prohibit it (save forPhilladelphia), I shouldn't have any problem winning this case.

    I don't have a scanner at the moment or else I would show you the summons.

    And for those of you who haven't read PA's firearm pre-emption (and for all you LEO lurkers who like to read what I write online) here it is:

    § 6120. Limitation on the regulation of firearms and
    ammunition.
    (a) General rule.--No county, municipality or township may
    in any manner regulate the lawful ownership, possession,
    transfer or transportation of firearms, ammunition or ammunition
    components when carried or transported for purposes not
    prohibited by the laws of this Commonwealth.
    If he was charged under state law (presumably for failing to show his LTCF), where does Pittsburgh's prohibition come into play? Is 607.06 a Pittsburgh ordinance?

    The summons would be helpful.

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    da7f2q8 wrote:
    If he was charged under state law (presumably for failing to show his LTCF), where does Pittsburgh's prohibition come into play? Is 607.06 a Pittsburgh ordinance?

    The summons would be helpful.
    607.06 is a Pittsburgh city ordinance.



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    It should be a slam dunk win. It depends on what kind of judge ends up on the case.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    Where is the 1983 countersuit???

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    Is a LTCF required to OC in Penn?

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    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Is a LTCF required to OC in Penn?
    No, except in vehicles, and except in philadelphia.

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    Mike wrote:
    Task Force 16 wrote:
    Is a LTCF required to OC in Penn?
    No, except in vehicles, and except in philadelphia.
    OK then, Good luck Mike.

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    So I won my court case. I'm actually a little bitter about it.

    First of all, the offending officer didn't even have the guts to show up.

    Then the Judge asked me what happend and I told him that:

    "I was approached at a McDonalds by the officer and was ordered to give him Identification. I told the officer i didn't need to"

    At this point I handed the judge my evidence (mostly all the statutes from the Uniform Firearms Act. The judge told me thathe didn't need it. Hethen said that this case was getting settled today (i thought to myself,no kidding)

    The judge asked how the officer knew I had a gun to which I reiterated that I open carry. He told me thats crazy, I told him thatitsa matter oflaw and thats all that was on trial. He asked me if I got mugged and they took my gun and shot someone else with it what I would tell the family. I just stared at him with a you've gotta be kidding me lookthen told him that one must be vigilant so such scenarios play out.

    He again told me it was crazy, I told him it was legal, we stared some more at each other and when he realized I wasn't going to be remorseful for excercising my rights he said the case was withdrawn.

    All in all a nigh complete waste of my time.

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    It's a relief you were cleared (the only legal outcome)

    But you're right, it was a waste of *YOUR* time.... Officer has not received a bit of inconvenience from this situation HE created.

    That's justice in Pa. for ya :/

    Discuss a civil rights claim with some attorneys.

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    Congrats Tony!

    One down,........

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    Maybe it's time the Pittsbugh City Council hear from gun owners at a council meeting re repealing their illegal open carry ban.

    I just found this email from a couple of years ago on this very ordiance:

    --


    Subject: RE: Preempted Pittsburgh open carry ban
    Date: 10/3/2006 11:33:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
    From: Wendy.Urbanic@city.pittsburgh.pa.us
    To:XXXXXXXX

    Dear Mr. Stollenwerk:

    I have forwarded your e-mail to the city solicitor for review. I will let you know as soon as I hear from him. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

    Wendy Urbanic

    Office of Mayor Luke Ravenstahl

    412.255.2621

    -----Original Message-----
    From: XXXXXXXXX


    Sent: Saturday, September 30, 200611:37 PM
    To: mayorcompl
    Subject: Preempted
    Pittsburgh open carry ban[size=]


    Dear Mayor Ravenstahl:


    I am writing to you to make sure your office and the police of Pittsburgh are aware of a preempted Pittsburgh ordinance listed in "muniCode" as follows:


    "§ 607.06 CARRYING OF OPERABLE FIREARMS PROHIBITED.



    No person shall carry in any vehicle or concealed or unconcealed on or about his person except when on his or her land or in his or her own abode or fixed place of business any firearm; provided that this section shall not apply to:



    (a)Those persons specifically exempted under 18 P.S. Sec. 6106(b)(1-10); or



    (b)Any person issued a valid license to the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act when carrying the type of weapon for which such license was issued.



    (Ord. 11-1980, eff. 7-25-80; Am. Ord. 30-1993, eff. 12-9-93)"


    This ordinance is of course completely preempted by the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act.


    But while the ordinance would seem to parallel the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act's restrictions on firearms carry generally, the ordinance is flawed in parallelism in that as a first criticism, it omits newexceptions in 18 P.S. Sec. 6106(b), and, seems to try to criminalize the open carry of handguns on foot without any license.


    I recommend that to eliminate the confusion, you ask the City Council to repeal this entire preempted chapter of ordinances - they are invalid. The citizen deserves clean code.


    But in the short term, I hope that your staff and police officers know that gun owners may lawfully open carry handguns without any license upon the streets and public property of Pittsburgh.


    And I also hope that your staff and police officers that any person holding a gun carry license from **any** state may openly or conceal carry handgunsin **vehicles** in Pittsburgh.


    Please let me know what you are going to do to ensure that these old preempted ordinances are not enforced - I would hope you would annotate them on your web site pending city council repeal.


    Please let me know what you are going to do.


    Sincerely,


    Mike Stollenwerk

    http://www.Opencarry.org



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    Mike wrote:
    Maybe it's time the Pittsbugh City Council hear from gun owners at a council meeting re repealing their illegal open carry ban.

    I just found this email from a couple of years ago on this very ordiance:

    --


    Subject: RE: Preempted Pittsburgh open carry ban
    Date: 10/3/2006 11:33:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time
    From: Wendy.Urbanic@city.pittsburgh.pa.us
    To:XXXXXXXX

    Dear Mr. Stollenwerk:

    I have forwarded your e-mail to the city solicitor for review. I will let you know as soon as I hear from him. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

    Wendy Urbanic

    Office of Mayor Luke Ravenstahl

    412.255.2621
    Did you ever hear back from either the city solicitor or the mayor?

    My guess would be not.

    Yata hey
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Grapeshot wrote:
    Did you ever hear back from either the city solicitor or the mayor?

    My guess would be not.

    Yata hey
    The mayor? HA. The boy blunder has a do nothing approach to governing in which he lets the democratic machine and the County Executive run roughshod over him. I wouldn't hold my breath on him making ANY statement that may sway one voter group or another against him. Maybe he'll surprise me one day and be more than a puppet of the democratic machine...but I doubt it.

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    Prophet wrote:
    So I won my court case. I'm actually a little bitter about it.

    First of all, the offending officer didn't even have the guts to show up.

    Then the Judge asked me what happend and I told him that:

    "I was approached at a McDonalds by the officer and was ordered to give him Identification. I told the officer i didn't need to"

    At this point I handed the judge my evidence (mostly all the statutes from the Uniform Firearms Act. The judge told me thathe didn't need it. Hethen said that this case was getting settled today (i thought to myself,no kidding)

    The judge asked how the officer knew I had a gun to which I reiterated that I open carry. He told me thats crazy, I told him thatitsa matter oflaw and thats all that was on trial. He asked me if I got mugged and they took my gun and shot someone else with it what I would tell the family. I just stared at him with a you've gotta be kidding me lookthen told him that one must be vigilant so such scenarios play out.

    He again told me it was crazy, I told him it was legal, we stared some more at each other and when he realized I wasn't going to be remorseful for excercising my rights he said the case was withdrawn.

    All in all a nigh complete waste of my time.
    I am not familiar with PA laws, but this was not a court of record, correct?? So while it is good for Prophet it does not help move the cause forward.

    P.S. Next timefile a summons for the police officers involved. That way they cannot weasel out of appearing so easily.
    fg an bealach
    ACTA NON VERBA
    At OCDO there are two things that are not tolerated, open carry intolerance and long gun open carry.
    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    I am not sure of the finer details of judicial minute' but you're correct...I won. I'll probably file a complaint to the officer who cited me.

    On a side note, I was stopped on my way to the bookstore today, about 45 minutes ago, and a pair of plain clothes cops told me to raise my hands and put my hands on their car. They flashed their badges so I did as asked.

    It was pretty much the same song and dance, "do you have an permit" yes i do, "you know its a concealed permit" yes, and i don't need it right now since I am open carrying.

    A little more back and forth, about 5 more cop cars showed up and apparently they were all like "yeah I heard about this guy, its the same one etc." It turned out that I was someone different than they initially thought so props to the other OC'er out there.

    ANYWAYS, one officer knew I had a citation for this and asked if I went to the hearing. I told him I did and that I won. One of the initial cops asked what the citation was for and what the judge said, I told it was for 607.06 and that the it was pre-empted by state statute 6120. He was like, "ok, we stopped you because people waved us down and said guy with gun, we came to check you out". He handed me back my firearm and told me to have a nice day. All in all it took about 10 minutes and they were pretty polite about the whole thing.

    As I was leaving the other, older initial officer asked if I would be open carrying tomorrow and I told him it depended on the weather and that I might be wearing a coat. He kind of smiled and nodded and said ok. Off I went to the bookstore. As far as incidents go this one was pretty smooth.

    Actually, side story, the older officer at one point did the regular song and dance about CC'ing better than OC'ing (everyone has a right to their opinion) and asked me:
    Have you ever been admitted to western psych?
    nope
    , do I have a death wish?
    nope,
    do you lie?
    At this I smiled and told him honestly "not usually"
    He gave me that same have smile type head nod thing. It was amusing to me.

    The older officer ended up being a pretty decent bloke after initially being kind of a hard ass. I think he had this pre-concieved notion that I was out to get a bunch of publicity and a bunch of cops to hassle me. I think this because he actually told me this. By being the calm charmin SOB that I am, he realized that I was just someone who believed in the 2nd amendment in a little different fashion than he did.
    So I think we all arrived at a very special place, spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    LOL at the "special place" comment. :celebrate:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


    "I like people who stand on the Constitution... unless they're using it to wipe their feet." - Jon E Hutcherson

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    Prophet wrote:
    I am not sure of the finer details of judicial minute' but you're correct...I won. I'll probably file a complaint to the officer who cited me.

    On a side note, I was stopped on my way to the bookstore today, about 45 minutes ago, and a pair of plain clothes cops told me to raise my hands and put my hands on their car. They flashed their badges so I did as asked.

    It was pretty much the same song and dance, "do you have an permit" yes i do, "you know its a concealed permit" yes, and i don't need it right now since I am open carrying.

    A little more back and forth, about 5 more cop cars showed up and apparently they were all like "yeah I heard about this guy, its the same one etc." It turned out that I was someone different than they initially thought so props to the other OC'er out there.

    ANYWAYS, one officer knew I had a citation for this and asked if I went to the hearing. I told him I did and that I won. One of the initial cops asked what the citation was for and what the judge said, I told it was for 607.06 and that the it was pre-empted by state statute 6120. He was like, "ok, we stopped you because people waved us down and said guy with gun, we came to check you out". He handed me back my firearm and told me to have a nice day. All in all it took about 10 minutes and they were pretty polite about the whole thing.

    As I was leaving the other, older initial officer asked if I would be open carrying tomorrow and I told him it depended on the weather and that I might be wearing a coat. He kind of smiled and nodded and said ok. Off I went to the bookstore. As far as incidents go this one was pretty smooth.

    Actually, side story, the older officer at one point did the regular song and dance about CC'ing better than OC'ing (everyone has a right to their opinion) and asked me:
    Have you ever been admitted to western psych?
    nope
    , do I have a death wish?
    nope,
    do you lie?
    At this I smiled and told him honestly "not usually"
    He gave me that same have smile type head nod thing. It was amusing to me.

    The older officer ended up being a pretty decent bloke after initially being kind of a hard ass. I think he had this pre-concieved notion that I was out to get a bunch of publicity and a bunch of cops to hassle me. I think this because he actually told me this. By being the calm charmin SOB that I am, he realized that I was just someone who believed in the 2nd amendment in a little different fashion than he did.
    So I think we all arrived at a very special place, spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.
    You probably have a 4th amendment case but this preemption stuff is tricky in federal court as it requires the court to dip way down into the muck of what state law is - you might want to file an action for damages in state court.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    Funny little followup. While I was browsing the internet a few seconds ago at a public computer a gentlemen comes up to me and asks me if I was all right.

    I wasn't sure what he meant at first and he told me that he saw me being questioned by the cops yesterday with my hands on the hood and wondered if I was ok. He told me that he didn't think that I could be in trouble because I was such a nice guy when we had met while I was on the campaign trail last year.

    Its always nice to be remembered even though I didn't become mayor. If I had OC would be ACCEPTED without question. But I digress.

    He asked me what happend and I told him that some people waved down a cop car and gave the "guy with a gun" spiel and that they came and asked me about it and wanted my ID. He asked if they could do that and how he would feel embarrassed if it was him. I told him, "its pretty scary what the police can do when there are no checks against them".

    He agreed, told me he was glad that I was ok, I thanked him and he went on his way.

    That made me feel pretty good. Especially since when I was walking over here on the street a guy stopped me and asked if the meter maids check on Saturdays. I told him that they do and he said thanks, noticed my sidearm and asked what I was carrying. I told him and we had a little conversation on how it shoots and I asked whether he carried. He told me the Mrs. is against it so he's trying to work on it while still staying married. He then told me he thinks OC is great and is happy to see it out in the world. I thanked him and went on my way.

    Hearts and minds...bit by bit.

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    Prophet wrote:
    I am not sure of the finer details of judicial minute' but you're correct...I won. I'll probably file a complaint to the officer who cited me.

    On a side note, I was stopped on my way to the bookstore today, about 45 minutes ago, and a pair of plain clothes cops told me to raise my hands and put my hands on their car. They flashed their badges so I did as asked.

    It was pretty much the same song and dance, "do you have an permit" yes i do, "you know its a concealed permit" yes, and i don't need it right now since I am open carrying.

    A little more back and forth, about 5 more cop cars showed up and apparently they were all like "yeah I heard about this guy, its the same one etc." It turned out that I was someone different than they initially thought so props to the other OC'er out there.

    ANYWAYS, one officer knew I had a citation for this and asked if I went to the hearing. I told him I did and that I won. One of the initial cops asked what the citation was for and what the judge said, I told it was for 607.06 and that the it was pre-empted by state statute 6120. He was like, "ok, we stopped you because people waved us down and said guy with gun, we came to check you out". He handed me back my firearm and told me to have a nice day. All in all it took about 10 minutes and they were pretty polite about the whole thing.

    As I was leaving the other, older initial officer asked if I would be open carrying tomorrow and I told him it depended on the weather and that I might be wearing a coat. He kind of smiled and nodded and said ok. Off I went to the bookstore. As far as incidents go this one was pretty smooth.

    Actually, side story, the older officer at one point did the regular song and dance about CC'ing better than OC'ing (everyone has a right to their opinion) and asked me:
    Have you ever been admitted to western psych?
    nope
    , do I have a death wish?
    nope,
    do you lie?
    At this I smiled and told him honestly "not usually"
    He gave me that same have smile type head nod thing. It was amusing to me.

    The older officer ended up being a pretty decent bloke after initially being kind of a hard ass. I think he had this pre-concieved notion that I was out to get a bunch of publicity and a bunch of cops to hassle me. I think this because he actually told me this. By being the calm charmin SOB that I am, he realized that I was just someone who believed in the 2nd amendment in a little different fashion than he did.
    So I think we all arrived at a very special place, spiritually, ecumenically, grammatically.
    sorry, but that crap is still unacceptable. "oh, we got a call, so we're gonna shake you down...uh, i mean, make sure you're a nice guy and all...." they still had no reason to stop you, and i'm sure they knew it, since they knew who you were, and you telling them you won your case should've ended the whole thing. i hope every single LEO in this state who's ever stopped, detained, cuffed, arrested, harrassed, opined to, or looked sideways at a guy minding his own business gets sued, loses his job, and works 3rd shift security at whatever mall is closest to them.

    whew, glad to get that out. having a bad day. move along now, lads, nothin' here tah see...
    Givin' up the tactical advantage since 2008.

    Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ

  21. #21
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    yeah...i guess Im just a little run down. Its tough having the entire future of the second amendment rest squarely and solely on my shoulders...

    hahahaha.

    But seriously, I think it was just such a change from the usual asinine behaviour that the last few cops gave me that it just seemed like a better experience. The more I think about it though the more you're right...oh well...after a good nights rest I'll be ready for the next round of illegal and unconstitutional tramplings of my civil rights.

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    1. The ordinace cited is preempted by state law and is thus null and void.

    2. The police officer who issued the citation failed to show up for the hearing.

    3. The charge was dismissed.

    So, was the charge dismissed for Reason #1 or Reason #2? Unfortunately, I think it was the latter, not the former. The judge did not state that the ordinance was null and void, just that the case would be settled the same day. No witness (the police officer) to confront? No case.

    It's still a win for our side, but maybe not the win we wanted.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Prophet's Avatar
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    You may be right Stat, but according to Pittsburgh City Police Lt. Herrman as told to Mike Stollenwerk, the police understand the citation should never have been given in the first place. That can always be used in case there is a next time for a case of police harrassment.

    I don't care what convoluted, roundabout, tomtom directional way we get there as long as in the end open carry is understood and accepted by the police so that I, and everyone else who chooses to practice this freedom in the same manner, will no longer be hassled.

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    Statkowski wrote:
    1. The ordinace cited is preempted by state law and is thus null and void.

    2. The police officer who issued the citation failed to show up for the hearing.

    3. The charge was dismissed.

    So, was the charge dismissed for Reason #1 or Reason #2? Unfortunately, I think it was the latter, not the former. The judge did not state that the ordinance was null and void, just that the case would be settled the same day. No witness (the police officer) to confront? No case.

    It's still a win for our side, but maybe not the win we wanted.
    Exactly so. The ordinance still stands, and if they're gluttons for punishment, they can continue to cite people under it. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if the officer was instructed not to show up for the hearing, so that the ordinance wouldn't be thrown out.

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    mvpel wrote:
    Exactly so. The ordinance still stands, and if they're gluttons for punishment, they can continue to cite people under it. I wouldn't be terribly shocked if the officer was instructed not to show up for the hearing, so that the ordinance wouldn't be thrown out.
    Each time they lose, the ante goes up. They will lose big if the persist.

    If they cannot see the writing on the wall, then they are looking the wrong way. Do what it takes to turn them around.

    Yata hey
    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time.

    Yata hey

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