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Thread: Open Carry Opponent calls you 'Unhelpful'

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    http://regularfolksunited.com/index....article_id=216

    What is the best way to counter his arguments?

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    Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry.
    Pure unadulterated BS. Michigan, Virginia and Washington all had this phase where it seemed that nobody in law enforcementknew OC was legal. It is exactly that; a phase; a transitional period between implementation and acceptance.Now, largely thanks to a few sacrifices on the part of those on this board, local police know it's legal, and dispatchers really are starting to ask "Well, is he waving it around or being threatening to other people?" before telling the officers to go lights and sirens for a MWAG.

    I wonder what point it is they are trying to make. I know that they could conceal their gun but they choose not to. Why? Just to get in people’s face about it, or to show off that they can? At the very least I think it shows poor judgment and disrespect for your fellow citizens. Just because you have the right to do something, something you know will upset a lot of people, doesn’t mean that you should.
    OK,just because it'stotallythe blogger'sright to bash open carry, something he knows will upset a lot of people, doesn't mean thathe should. The blogger's exactly right; there's legal and prudent, and the two sometimes do not coincide. However, he totally misses the point. OCers, even if they are trying to make a statement and raise public awareness, are by no means trying to antagonize. Show me an OCer whose sole reason is to get arrested so he can sue, and I'll show you an OCer who's working way too hard for his money (and who is not likely to succeed). Sometimesantagonizingcan't be helped; there are unfortunately a lot of people who are genuinely frightened of firearms and are either totally unwilling or mentally incapable of being reasoned with. However, the vast majority look at a person going about his business like any other person and see a normal, and the sight of a gun on their hip might cause an onlooker to raise an eyebrow, but not the hue and cry.

    On top of that, "It may be legal but don't do it or they'll outlaw it" is a totally fallacious argument; unfortunately there's some truth behind it (Black Panthers parade in California), but there hasn't been a single State in which public awareness has grown regarding handgun OC that has changed the laws to crack down on it.Law enforcement hastried to interpret the laws to suit themselves, they've outright ignored it sometimes, but not a single State Legislature has said "We've had enough of these gun-huggers". First, it's political suicide in the current climate, and second, allowing citizens to arm themselves actually saves the State a chunk of change on law enforcement and legal costs.
    Last week in Pennsylvania, the Lebanon County Sheriff revoked the concealed handgun permit of a woman who insisted on open carrying her gun to her daughter’s soccer games. This upset other parents and they complained to police. The irony is that what she was doing is legal and revoking her concealed handgun permit does nothing to prevent her from open carry. Problem not solved.
    And who's fault? The Sheriff KNEW that revoking the CC permit would change absolutely nothing; he did it solely to spite her because an old buddy of his thought he was still on the judge's bench. The blogger's right; problem not solved. But who has the problem here? Obviously not the soccer mom; she OCed before and she'll continue to do so, now more often than not. Once again, government proves that, when it has to be seen doing something, it will take a bad idea, somehow rationalize it, put it into effect, then defend it as if it were God's Word.
    It was a long hard fight to get 38 states to pass laws giving law-abiding citizens the right to defend themselves as they go about their daily business. Before the concealed carry movement started there were only a handful of states that would issue permits to anyone interested in self-defense. In recent years a new movement has started up of people who insist on carrying their protection openly. But only 6 states prohibit or severely restrict open carry. Which begs the question, why have a movement for something that is already allowed almost everywhere?
    Ask Dr. King. I mean, the 15th Amendment saying racecould not be a bar to voting rightshad been around almost 100 years, so why have a movement for something that was already allowed everywhere? It's the extreme, but gun carriers face a lot of harrassment even in states that explicitly recognize open carry as a right. OCers are arrested for any number of things just to get them off the streets. It isn't right; it's an injustice. Are we going to roll over and take it just because they're the police? No. They are the police, NOT the law, and the end result of this unpleasantness is, 9 times out of 10, that those hired to enforce the law are required to educate themselves on it, such that this unpleasantness does not happen again.

    [line]

    On top of all this, seriously, what is he complaining about? If he doesn't want to OC, fine. I don't particularly feel like owning a .50 caliber rifle, and would not be quick to defend civilian ownership from a practical standpoint, but I don't have to; there are others who can and will argue that point. My point is OC, which is easier for me; far more practical advantages. Compare it to anything else in whichthere are options. You want as many as possible. You will obviously pick just one any given time you make the choice, and will probably stick with that one choice, but if there's only one or two options it's not much of a choice. To put it back on him; with 44 out of 50 states allowing OC, the odds are decent he lives in an OC state. Why then didhe need concealed carry? Because he wanted that option. Our fight is no different from the fight for concealed carry; we want OC as an option, and more specifically, as a viable one that will not get us harrassed by misinformed and even power-tripping police officers.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Liko81 wrote:
    Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry.
    Pure unadulterated BS. Michigan, Virginia and Washington all had this phase where it seemed that nobody in law enforcementknew OC was legal. It is exactly that; a phase; a transitional period between implementation and acceptance.Now, largely thanks to a few sacrifices on the part of those on this board, local police know it's legal, and dispatchers really are starting to ask "Well, is he waving it around or being threatening to other people?" before telling the officers to go lights and sirens for a MWAG.

    Couldn't have said it better. A large part of my concern for this is to get firearms into society, to be seen as something as normal as carrying your car keys.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    I like guns. I have a bunch of them. I have a Concealed Handgun Permit and I carry a gun on a daily basis. No one knows I am carrying it because no one sees it. The breakdown of state laws to date is this: in Obama’s Illinois and Wisconsin you cannot get a concealed handgun permit; in 38 states the government has to give you the license if you have no criminal record (and meet a few other easy requirements); in 10 states the authorities may issue you a license if you are friends with the chief of police, or a celebrity, or well connected politically. In those 10 states they can deny your application for any reason, like that cheap haircut you got (clearly the sign of a deviant mind).

    It was a long hard fight to get 38 states to pass laws giving law-abiding citizens the right to defend themselves as they go about their daily business. Before the concealed carry movement started there were only a handful of states that would issue permits to anyone interested in self-defense. In recent years a new movement has started up of people who insist on carrying their protection openly. But only 6 states prohibit or severely restrict open carry. Which begs the question, why have a movement for something that is already allowed almost everywhere?

    Last week in Pennsylvania, the Lebanon County Sheriff revoked the concealed handgun permit of a woman who insisted on open carrying her gun to her daughter’s soccer games. This upset other parents and they complained to police. The irony is that what she was doing is legal and revoking her concealed handgun permit does nothing to prevent her from open carry. Problem not solved.

    She is not alone. There is a growing number of people who believe that a right not exercised is a right lost. They know that a lot of people get upset, or nervous, or scared when they see someone who is obviously not a police officer walking around with a gun on their hip, at the mall, at the grocery store, at the park, around your kids, etc. All these are places where most people really don’t expect to see their fellow citizens armed. Honestly, it makes me nervous and I am as comfortable as can be around guns.

    I wonder what point it is they are trying to make. I know that they could conceal their gun but they choose not to. Why? Just to get in people’s face about it, or to show off that they can? At the very least I think it shows poor judgment and disrespect for your fellow citizens. Just because you have the right to do something, something you know will upset a lot of people, doesn’t mean that you should.

    I also feel sorry for the police officers who have to take time away from other more important matters to respond to man-with-a-gun calls. Some gun rights advocates think that the police should just ignore such calls if the man with the gun is behaving normally. But how can they? What if they don’t respond and there is an incident? We expect and want our police to be proactive and not just show up after a crime has been committed but actually work to prevent crimes in the first place. When the police get a call from a concerned citizen that there is a man walking around with a holstered gun they should respond. When they get there they have no idea what is going though the man’s mind. They have to speak with the person to be sure that they have no bad intent. This is a hassle for the police, for the concerned citizen, and for the gun owner. No one wins.

    Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry. Thanks for nothing guys.

    PS: You are not Batman either.
    I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    PS: You are not Batman either.
    I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?
    That's why I carry an XD45, 13+1 capacity. If I use 14 rounds I'm in a place where 13 more probably won't make a difference. All the other stuff, except a small light, knife and phone seems silly to me. If you want to carry all that crap, just go be a cop.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    PrayingForWar wrote:
    Doug Huffman wrote:
    PS: You are not Batman either.
    I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?
    That's why I carry an XD45, 13+1 capacity. If I use 14 rounds I'm in a place where 13 more probably won't make a difference. All the other stuff, except a small light, knife and phone seems silly to me. If you want to carry all that crap, just go be a cop.
    G22 15+1 and a spare 15rd mag. 31 all together and My pants stay up just fine. Its called a belt lol. :celebrate

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    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    http://regularfolksunited.com/index....article_id=216

    What is the best way to counter his arguments?
    The best way to counter his argument is not to argue with him.

    He has his opinion, and as we all are ware he is entitled to have it. Just as we have our own opinion, which probably differs greatly from his. So what?

    It's not a contest, and there ought not to be anybody thinking about "winning" are "losing" anything. OC if that is what you want to do. Let him CC, as that is what he wants to do.

    He does document some of the outrages that are inflicted on some folks for acting in a completely legal, lawful and peaceful manner, such as the Lebanon County Sherrif's revocation of a soccer mom's LTC. That, IMHO, is "helpful" to the cause of OC-ing in spite of how he might see it as proof that OC-ing will only result in legal troubles.

    This is where I insert the plug for calling everyone who can to attend the Norfolk (Virginia)City Council meeting Tuesday, October 7th, beginning at ~ 6:30 PM to show support for OCDO maember Danbus and outrage over the Norfolk Police again attempting to arrest him for OC. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/16765.html

    If there are going to be problems arising because police do not know or will not adhere to the law regarding OC, or if there are people who fly into a tizzy every time they see someone OC-ing, then education and exposure are, IMHO, the remedies needed instead of [crawling into a cave and hiding] saying the only way to carry a firearm is concealed.

    Some will agree with this. A smaller number will be willing to OC in the face of opposition like the OP referred to. And a still smaller number will agree to become the test case if that is what is needed. The "movement" needs all the different numbers. "A right not exercised is a right given up" can also be stated as "If we do not hang together we shall surely be hanged separately."

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    Maybe you can comment directly and get him to respond.

    I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind. It sounds like quiet a burden.

    I don't think it makes much sense to be afraid of OC, though. If I wanted to kill someone I could do it with my bare hands and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it.

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    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    Maybe you can comment directly and get him to respond.

    I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind. It sounds like quiet a burden.

    That's why most people who OC use a retention holster. The BG won't be able to "snatch" your pistol/revolver without a fight.
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
    The thing about common sense is....it ain't too common.
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    I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    I believe OP should Google "retention holster", begin with Fobus, to better understand the new wave of secure holsters often used by those who OC.

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    I suggest that 'retention holsters' is a distraction at best, evidenced by the 'has it ever happened' question. It is another 'reasonableness' argument for various infringements. Not dissimilar to ...

    Safety is a tyrant's tool because no one can be against safety.

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    rodbender wrote:
    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
    I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    I LAWL'd at that OP ED.


    I think I can summarize it:

    "Hey OCers! I'm one of you! I like guns! Guns scare people, so you shouldn't have one on your hip. K? K, let's have tea and crumpets.

    PS: You're all vigilantes. Don't do that."

    ---

    I'll start giving these
    opinion articles merit when they're supported by hard facts; in either direction.

    Give us EVIDENCE that openly carryinghas a detrimental and negative effect on society. How many people have been hospitalized, Committed, Treated for exposure to open carry? I seriously doubt anyone has suffered mental or physical harm from being in the presence of someone with a firearm on their hip. If that were the case, the police would just have clubs, right?

    And why should the police be almighty in comparison to the civilian? Because they have a firearm? Is that the only distinguishable factor? Should it be?

    It's as if the writer just skimmed a few "hot topic" threads and threw something together to meet a deadline.

    Give us facts. Give us numbers. Gives us true statistics, not emotions and biased opinions. If you want to write an opinion article, clearly state it is YOUR opinion, with "MY", "ME", "I" - "feel", "think", "want"...
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    rodbender wrote:
    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
    I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

    Yata hey
    It reminds me of the bucket heads who say that women shouldn't HAVE guns at all because they'll get "taken away and used against them". I've been asking for an example that DIDN'T involve a policewoman attempting to apprehend someone with less than lethal force FOR MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS. No takers yet.

    I always say, "Nobody takes much of anything when they've got a sucking chest wound."
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    rodbender wrote:
    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
    I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

    Yata hey

    First answer: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/395.html

    Gun snatched from holster from behind.



    ETA: Bohdi seems to think this is false; and no correction to the police report was ever made. Left up to speculation I suppose.

    The problem with the internet is nobody can really tell when youre serious and when youre being sarcastic. Abraham Lincoln

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    How many times have police officers had their gun grabbed for and/or taken successfully?
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    demnogis wrote:
    How many times have police officers had their gun grabbed for and/or taken successfully?
    I don't know, but it's not a great comparison to make. It's a policeman's job to get up close and personal with someone who has a lot of motivation to fight back. Folks who are carrying for protection are not seeking out bad guys, and making every effort (hopefully) to get away. If you really want to go that route, how many police officers had their gun taken while not trying to apprehend a suspect? That's a situation more in line with your average OCer.

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    CC is the permitted option. OC is the Right! Irefuse tobe cowed into submitting to the 'option only' at the mercy of some yahoo onna power trip.

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    ChinChin wrote:
    Grapeshot wrote:
    rodbender wrote:
    Leroy Jenkins wrote:
    I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
    Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
    I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

    Yata hey

    First answer: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/395.html

    Gun snatched from holster from behind.



    ETA: Bohdi seems to think this is false; and no correction to the police report was ever made. Left up to speculation I suppose.
    This was a robbery not a snatch. The OCer was obviously targeted but so too could a known CCer have been. If the man robbed had been CCing, would it be said that his handgun was snatched?

    His tactical awareness was lousy though wasn't it.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    On that batman comment, if you OC, you may not ever need any of the other stuff, since criminals will see you OCing and know to go elseware.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    XD40coyote wrote:
    On that batman comment, if you OC, you may not ever need any of the other stuff, since criminals will see you OCing and know to go elseware.
    You may be right.

    Yata hey
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Grapeshot wrote:
    XD40coyote wrote:
    On that batman comment, if you OC, you may not ever need any of the other stuff, since criminals will see you OCing and know to go elseware.
    You may be right.

    Yata hey
    I agree. Although the majority ofBG's will abort their plans of criminal activity at the sight of OC, there is still a small percentage that will not. And you may be faced with more than one perp in these instances.

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    XD40coyote wrote:
    On that batman comment, if you OC, you may not ever need any of the other stuff, since criminals will see you OCing and know to go elseware.
    I think the "you are not Batman" comment comes from a satirical article on SomethingAwful.com:

    http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news...ry-renfest.php

    Humorous, but so full of crap it's almost hard to stomach reading it. Again.

    ...Orygunner...

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    'Just now read that 'BATMAN' thing. Echo's the blissful ignorance of many... altho 'Robin Hood' with the Sig is pretty ridiculous. I carry for a reason. When there's no reason... I don't. I've never owned (much less worn) a 'polo' shirt... 'nor have I ever been 'pear shaped'. I don't forsee either in my future. The 'writers' are equally ridiculous. Encumbrance is enuff with the 1911-A1 and a pair of mags. I'll add the knife and a cell phone pouchwhen on the trips between civilization in the desert... but not normally.I never carry a cell phone.... altho I prob'ly should.

    Any 'encounters' I may expect are gonna be in those parkin' lots or the sidewalks... not in the stores. The convienience stores possibly... 'cause they're frequent targets. Point is... I carry for self defense.

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