• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Open Carry Opponent calls you 'Unhelpful'

Liko81

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Dec 26, 2007
Messages
496
Location
Dallas, TX, ,
imported post

Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry.
Pure unadulterated BS. Michigan, Virginia and Washington all had this phase where it seemed that nobody in law enforcementknew OC was legal. It is exactly that; a phase; a transitional period between implementation and acceptance.Now, largely thanks to a few sacrifices on the part of those on this board, local police know it's legal, and dispatchers really are starting to ask "Well, is he waving it around or being threatening to other people?" before telling the officers to go lights and sirens for a MWAG.

I wonder what point it is they are trying to make. I know that they could conceal their gun but they choose not to. Why? Just to get in people’s face about it, or to show off that they can? At the very least I think it shows poor judgment and disrespect for your fellow citizens. Just because you have the right to do something, something you know will upset a lot of people, doesn’t mean that you should.

OK,just because it'stotallythe blogger'sright to bash open carry, something he knows will upset a lot of people, doesn't mean thathe should. The blogger's exactly right; there's legal and prudent, and the two sometimes do not coincide. However, he totally misses the point. OCers, even if they are trying to make a statement and raise public awareness, are by no means trying to antagonize. Show me an OCer whose sole reason is to get arrested so he can sue, and I'll show you an OCer who's working way too hard for his money (and who is not likely to succeed). Sometimesantagonizingcan't be helped; there are unfortunately a lot of people who are genuinely frightened of firearms and are either totally unwilling or mentally incapable of being reasoned with. However, the vast majority look at a person going about his business like any other person and see a normal, and the sight of a gun on their hip might cause an onlooker to raise an eyebrow, but not the hue and cry.

On top of that, "It may be legal but don't do it or they'll outlaw it" is a totally fallacious argument; unfortunately there's some truth behind it (Black Panthers parade in California), but there hasn't been a single State in which public awareness has grown regarding handgun OC that has changed the laws to crack down on it.Law enforcement hastried to interpret the laws to suit themselves, they've outright ignored it sometimes, but not a single State Legislature has said "We've had enough of these gun-huggers". First, it's political suicide in the current climate, and second, allowing citizens to arm themselves actually saves the State a chunk of change on law enforcement and legal costs.
Last week in Pennsylvania, the Lebanon County Sheriff revoked the concealed handgun permit of a woman who insisted on open carrying her gun to her daughter’s soccer games. This upset other parents and they complained to police. The irony is that what she was doing is legal and revoking her concealed handgun permit does nothing to prevent her from open carry. Problem not solved.
And who's fault? The Sheriff KNEW that revoking the CC permit would change absolutely nothing; he did it solely to spite her because an old buddy of his thought he was still on the judge's bench. The blogger's right; problem not solved. But who has the problem here? Obviously not the soccer mom; she OCed before and she'll continue to do so, now more often than not. Once again, government proves that, when it has to be seen doing something, it will take a bad idea, somehow rationalize it, put it into effect, then defend it as if it were God's Word.
It was a long hard fight to get 38 states to pass laws giving law-abiding citizens the right to defend themselves as they go about their daily business. Before the concealed carry movement started there were only a handful of states that would issue permits to anyone interested in self-defense. In recent years a new movement has started up of people who insist on carrying their protection openly. But only 6 states prohibit or severely restrict open carry. Which begs the question, why have a movement for something that is already allowed almost everywhere?
Ask Dr. King. I mean, the 15th Amendment saying racecould not be a bar to voting rightshad been around almost 100 years, so why have a movement for something that was already allowed everywhere? It's the extreme, but gun carriers face a lot of harrassment even in states that explicitly recognize open carry as a right. OCers are arrested for any number of things just to get them off the streets. It isn't right; it's an injustice. Are we going to roll over and take it just because they're the police? No. They are the police, NOT the law, and the end result of this unpleasantness is, 9 times out of 10, that those hired to enforce the law are required to educate themselves on it, such that this unpleasantness does not happen again.

[line]

On top of all this, seriously, what is he complaining about? If he doesn't want to OC, fine. I don't particularly feel like owning a .50 caliber rifle, and would not be quick to defend civilian ownership from a practical standpoint, but I don't have to; there are others who can and will argue that point. My point is OC, which is easier for me; far more practical advantages. Compare it to anything else in whichthere are options. You want as many as possible. You will obviously pick just one any given time you make the choice, and will probably stick with that one choice, but if there's only one or two options it's not much of a choice. To put it back on him; with 44 out of 50 states allowing OC, the odds are decent he lives in an OC state. Why then didhe need concealed carry? Because he wanted that option. Our fight is no different from the fight for concealed carry; we want OC as an option, and more specifically, as a viable one that will not get us harrassed by misinformed and even power-tripping police officers.
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
imported post

Liko81 wrote:
Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry.
Pure unadulterated BS. Michigan, Virginia and Washington all had this phase where it seemed that nobody in law enforcementknew OC was legal. It is exactly that; a phase; a transitional period between implementation and acceptance.Now, largely thanks to a few sacrifices on the part of those on this board, local police know it's legal, and dispatchers really are starting to ask "Well, is he waving it around or being threatening to other people?" before telling the officers to go lights and sirens for a MWAG.
Couldn't have said it better. A large part of my concern for this is to get firearms into society, to be seen as something as normal as carrying your car keys.
 

Doug Huffman

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
9,180
Location
Washington Island, across Death's Door, Wisconsin,
imported post

I like guns. I have a bunch of them. I have a Concealed Handgun Permit and I carry a gun on a daily basis. No one knows I am carrying it because no one sees it. The breakdown of state laws to date is this: in Obama’s Illinois and Wisconsin you cannot get a concealed handgun permit; in 38 states the government has to give you the license if you have no criminal record (and meet a few other easy requirements); in 10 states the authorities may issue you a license if you are friends with the chief of police, or a celebrity, or well connected politically. In those 10 states they can deny your application for any reason, like that cheap haircut you got (clearly the sign of a deviant mind).

It was a long hard fight to get 38 states to pass laws giving law-abiding citizens the right to defend themselves as they go about their daily business. Before the concealed carry movement started there were only a handful of states that would issue permits to anyone interested in self-defense. In recent years a new movement has started up of people who insist on carrying their protection openly. But only 6 states prohibit or severely restrict open carry. Which begs the question, why have a movement for something that is already allowed almost everywhere?

Last week in Pennsylvania, the Lebanon County Sheriff revoked the concealed handgun permit of a woman who insisted on open carrying her gun to her daughter’s soccer games. This upset other parents and they complained to police. The irony is that what she was doing is legal and revoking her concealed handgun permit does nothing to prevent her from open carry. Problem not solved.

She is not alone. There is a growing number of people who believe that a right not exercised is a right lost. They know that a lot of people get upset, or nervous, or scared when they see someone who is obviously not a police officer walking around with a gun on their hip, at the mall, at the grocery store, at the park, around your kids, etc. All these are places where most people really don’t expect to see their fellow citizens armed. Honestly, it makes me nervous and I am as comfortable as can be around guns.

I wonder what point it is they are trying to make. I know that they could conceal their gun but they choose not to. Why? Just to get in people’s face about it, or to show off that they can? At the very least I think it shows poor judgment and disrespect for your fellow citizens. Just because you have the right to do something, something you know will upset a lot of people, doesn’t mean that you should.

I also feel sorry for the police officers who have to take time away from other more important matters to respond to man-with-a-gun calls. Some gun rights advocates think that the police should just ignore such calls if the man with the gun is behaving normally. But how can they? What if they don’t respond and there is an incident? We expect and want our police to be proactive and not just show up after a crime has been committed but actually work to prevent crimes in the first place. When the police get a call from a concerned citizen that there is a man walking around with a holstered gun they should respond. When they get there they have no idea what is going though the man’s mind. They have to speak with the person to be sure that they have no bad intent. This is a hassle for the police, for the concerned citizen, and for the gun owner. No one wins.

Open carry advocates think that if enough people start carrying guns openly that the public will get used to it. Unfortunately, there will never be enough gun owners willing to open carry to ever get most people used to this. The whole “movement” is not only an exercise in futility but actually counterproductive. When enough people get upset about this there will be a huge backlash and a wave of state laws to ban open carry. Thanks for nothing guys.

PS: You are not Batman either.
I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?
 

PrayingForWar

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
1,701
Location
The Real World.
imported post

Doug Huffman wrote:
PS: You are not Batman either.
I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?
That's why I carry an XD45, 13+1 capacity. If I use 14 rounds I'm in a place where 13 more probably won't make a difference. All the other stuff, except a small light, knife and phone seems silly to me. If you want to carry all that crap, just go be a cop.
 

mazellan819

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2007
Messages
158
Location
American Fork, Utah, USA
imported post

PrayingForWar wrote:
Doug Huffman wrote:
PS: You are not Batman either.
I am so tired of gun writers treating everyone who carries a gun like they are James Bond, Rambo, and the Amazing Kreskin rolled into one. Writers recommend that I carry a full power main gun with two extra magazines, a back up gun, a knife, pepper spray, a cell phone, and a flashlight in addition to my car keys and wallet. How in the heck am I supposed to keep my pants up? Why not add a cape, grappling hook, and a length of rope?
That's why I carry an XD45, 13+1 capacity. If I use 14 rounds I'm in a place where 13 more probably won't make a difference. All the other stuff, except a small light, knife and phone seems silly to me. If you want to carry all that crap, just go be a cop.

G22 15+1 and a spare 15rd mag. 31 all together and My pants stay up just fine. Its called a belt lol. :celebrate
 

skidmark

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Jan 15, 2007
Messages
10,444
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Leroy Jenkins wrote:

The best way to counter his argument is not to argue with him.

He has his opinion, and as we all are ware he is entitled to have it. Just as we have our own opinion, which probably differs greatly from his. So what?

It's not a contest, and there ought not to be anybody thinking about "winning" are "losing" anything. OC if that is what you want to do. Let him CC, as that is what he wants to do.

He does document some of the outrages that are inflicted on some folks for acting in a completely legal, lawful and peaceful manner, such as the Lebanon County Sherrif's revocation of a soccer mom's LTC. That, IMHO, is "helpful" to the cause of OC-ing in spite of how he might see it as proof that OC-ing will only result in legal troubles.

This is where I insert the plug for calling everyone who can to attend the Norfolk (Virginia)City Council meeting Tuesday, October 7th, beginning at ~ 6:30 PM to show support for OCDO maember Danbus and outrage over the Norfolk Police again attempting to arrest him for OC. http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/16765.html

If there are going to be problems arising because police do not know or will not adhere to the law regarding OC, or if there are people who fly into a tizzy every time they see someone OC-ing, then education and exposure are, IMHO, the remedies needed instead of [crawling into a cave and hiding] saying the only way to carry a firearm is concealed.

Some will agree with this. A smaller number will be willing to OC in the face of opposition like the OP referred to. And a still smaller number will agree to become the test case if that is what is needed. The "movement" needs all the different numbers. "A right not exercised is a right given up" can also be stated as "If we do not hang together we shall surely be hanged separately."

stay safe.

skidmark
 

Leroy Jenkins

New member
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
2
Location
, ,
imported post

Maybe you can comment directly and get him to respond.

I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind. It sounds like quiet a burden.

I don't think it makes much sense to be afraid of OC, though. If I wanted to kill someone I could do it with my bare hands and 99% of people wouldn't be able to do a damn thing about it.
 

Bookman

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 3, 2008
Messages
1,424
Location
Winston Salem, North Carolina, United States
imported post

Leroy Jenkins wrote:
Maybe you can comment directly and get him to respond.

I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind. It sounds like quiet a burden.
That's why most people who OC use a retention holster. The BG won't be able to "snatch" your pistol/revolver without a fight.
 

rodbender

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
2,519
Location
Navasota, Texas, USA
imported post

Leroy Jenkins wrote:
I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
 

GWbiker

Guest
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
958
Location
USA
imported post

I wonder though - what practical reason is there to open carry? I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.

I believe OP should Google "retention holster", begin with Fobus, to better understand the new wave of secure holsters often used by those who OC.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

rodbender wrote:
Leroy Jenkins wrote:
I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

Yata hey
 

demnogis

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
911
Location
Orange County, California, USA
imported post

I LAWL'd at that OP ED.


I think I can summarize it:

"Hey OCers! I'm one of you! I like guns! Guns scare people, so you shouldn't have one on your hip. K? K, let's have tea and crumpets.

PS: You're all vigilantes. Don't do that."

---

I'll start giving these
opinion articles merit when they're supported by hard facts; in either direction.

Give us EVIDENCE that openly carryinghas a detrimental and negative effect on society. How many people have been hospitalized, Committed, Treated for exposure to open carry? I seriously doubt anyone has suffered mental or physical harm from being in the presence of someone with a firearm on their hip. If that were the case, the police would just have clubs, right?

And why should the police be almighty in comparison to the civilian? Because they have a firearm? Is that the only distinguishable factor? Should it be?

It's as if the writer just skimmed a few "hot topic" threads and threw something together to meet a deadline.

Give us facts. Give us numbers. Gives us true statistics, not emotions and biased opinions. If you want to write an opinion article, clearly state it is YOUR opinion, with "MY", "ME", "I" - "feel", "think", "want"...
 

Deanimator

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2007
Messages
2,083
Location
Rocky River, OH, U.S.A.
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
rodbender wrote:
Leroy Jenkins wrote:
I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

Yata hey

It reminds me of the bucket heads who say that women shouldn't HAVE guns at all because they'll get "taken away and used against them". I've been asking for an example that DIDN'T involve a policewoman attempting to apprehend someone with less than lethal force FOR MORE THAN TWENTY YEARS. No takers yet.

I always say, "Nobody takes much of anything when they've got a sucking chest wound."
 

ChinChin

Regular Member
Joined
May 17, 2007
Messages
683
Location
Loudoun County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Grapeshot wrote:
rodbender wrote:
Leroy Jenkins wrote:
I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

Yata hey


First answer: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/395.html

Gun snatched from holster from behind.



ETA: Bohdi seems to think this is false; and no correction to the police report was ever made. Left up to speculation I suppose.
 

FogRider

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2007
Messages
1,412
Location
Centennial, Colorado, USA
imported post

demnogis wrote:
How many times have police officers had their gun grabbed for and/or taken successfully?
I don't know, but it's not a great comparison to make. It's a policeman's job to get up close and personal with someone who has a lot of motivation to fight back. Folks who are carrying for protection are not seeking out bad guys, and making every effort (hopefully) to get away. If you really want to go that route, how many police officers had their gun taken while not trying to apprehend a suspect? That's a situation more in line with your average OCer.
 

Sonora Rebel

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
3,956
Location
Gone
imported post

CC is the permitted option. OC is the Right! Irefuse tobe cowed into submitting to the 'option only' at the mercy of some yahoo onna power trip.
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

ChinChin wrote:
Grapeshot wrote:
rodbender wrote:
Leroy Jenkins wrote:
I'd be a little concerned about someone snatching the gun out of my holster from behind.
Can you find one, just one, documented case of this happening? Really not much to worry about.
I have posed this for years and years - I'm still waiting for the first answer too. Most people that suggest this problem, just ignore the my response or suggest that it well, it is possible. Sigh....

Yata hey


First answer: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum4/395.html

Gun snatched from holster from behind.



ETA: Bohdi seems to think this is false; and no correction to the police report was ever made. Left up to speculation I suppose.

This was a robbery not a snatch. The OCer was obviously targeted but so too could a known CCer have been. If the man robbed had been CCing, would it be said that his handgun was snatched?

His tactical awareness was lousy though wasn't it.

Yata hey
 
Top