Moving to Texas

UTOC-45-44 · Oct 3, 2008

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It looks like I am moving to Texas on the 15th of Oct.

I was jsut wondering ( if I do some additional research I might find out), since I have a Utah CFP and I am going to TexasI will be fine to CCW with the permit. However as I get my Texas license on the 20th, will that have ANY kind of effect. Meaning...will I still be able to use my Utah CFP?

As a Texan resident will the Utah permit be recoginzed?

I will have to research ALOT about the State Laws. Is there any info that you guys can direct me to so that I will be able to faster read and understand the Gun Laws of Texas.

God Bless Texas.

TJ

Liko81 · Oct 3, 2008

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The Utah CFP will be good as long as it has your Texas residence address on it. You'll basically need to change from a resident to a non-resident license. I do not know how onerous that process is, or if you can change your residence address before you leave Utah,but in any caseit will likely be easier and not take nearly as long as applying for a Texas CHL. A Utah CFP counts as an SA-class CHL, meaning you can carry any concealable handgun you like.

The laws in Texas are basically, you may carry however you want on your own property, you may OCwhile hunting and while in the car during a long-distance trip (the unofficial rule is a trip spanning four counties, crossing three or more county lines, is pretty safely "travelling"). You must CC while in a car for shorter trips (without a permit) and in general (permit required). CHLs cannot carry into school buildings without written authorization of the administration, cannot carry at interscholastic, collegiateor professional sporting events, cannot carry into government buildings including post offices, courthouse buildings and police/fire stations, and cannot carry at "bars", which are defined as making 51% or more of their revenue from sale of alcohol to be consumed on-premises. Signage prohibiting carry anywhere else MUST conform to the specifications of TPC 30.06; if the sign has even a comma out of place it is nonbinding, to say nothing of gunbuster signs. Granting permission to a third party to carryon your propertyis not strictlyprovided forat law,but it's unbelievably rare to see someone prosecuted for unlawful carry when the person on whose land they were carrying said they could do so, usually because there's no complaint about it so the police wouldn't be called because of it.

As far as having to use it, we're a Castle Doctrine state with no duty to retreat, and you are justified in using deadly force to prevent unlawful use of deadly force against you, a third person who would be justified themselves, or to prevent sexual assault, aggravated assault, robbery, burglary or murder/manslaughter. You are allowed to shoot to protect your own property from theft or damagein most cases, to protect someone else's property in some cases, and to recover stolen property while in immediate pursuit of the thief if there is no other way to recover it without putting you at considerable risk of bodily harm.

Welcome to Texas! We'd love to have the extra voice for OC here when January rolls around.

UTOC-45-44 · Oct 3, 2008

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Liko81 wrote:

The Utah CFP will be good as long as it has your Texas residence address on it. You'll basically need to change from a resident to a non-resident license. I do not know how onerous that process is, or if you can change your residence address before you leave Utah,but in any caseit will likely be easier and not take nearly as long as applying for a Texas CHL. A Utah CFP counts as an SA-class CHL, meaning you can carry any concealable handgun you like.

The laws in Texas are basically, you may carry however you want on your own property, you may OCwhile hunting and while in the car during a long-distance trip (the unofficial rule is a trip spanning four counties, crossing three or more county lines, is pretty safely "travelling"). You must CC while in a car for shorter trips (without a permit) and in general (permit required). CHLs cannot carry into school buildings without written authorization of the administration, cannot carry at interscholastic, collegiateor professional sporting events, cannot carry into government buildings including post offices, courthouse buildings and police/fire stations, and cannot carry at "bars", which are defined as making 51% or more of their revenue from sale of alcohol to be consumed on-premises. Signage prohibiting carry anywhere else MUST conform to the specifications of TPC 30.06; if the sign has even a comma out of place it is nonbinding, to say nothing of gunbuster signs. Granting permission to a third party to carryon your propertyis not strictlyprovided forat law,but it's unbelievably rare to see someone prosecuted for unlawful carry when the person on whose land they were carrying said they could do so, usually because there's no complaint about it so the police wouldn't be called because of it.

As far as having to use it, we're a Castle Doctrine state with no duty to retreat, and you are justified in using deadly force to prevent unlawful use of deadly force against you, a third person who would be justified themselves, or to prevent sexual assault, aggravated assault, robbery, burglary or murder/manslaughter. You are allowed to shoot to protect your own property from theft or damagein most cases, to protect someone else's property in some cases, and to recover stolen property while in immediate pursuit of the thief if there is no other way to recover it without putting you at considerable risk of bodily harm.

Welcome to Texas! We'd love to have the extra voice for OC here when January rolls around.

and while in the car during a long-distance trip (the unofficial rule is a trip spanning four counties, crossing three or more county lines, is pretty safely "travelling").

I will be on my MC going from SLC - Cheyenne,WY - Denver, CO - Co Springs, CO - and finally end up in Killeen, TX. Can I OC on my MC ???

and cannot carry at "bars", which are defined as making 51% or more of their revenue from sale of alcohol to be consumed on-premises.

How about in stores the sells any type of alcohol and not for consumption, like I don't know, a Grocery Store like Albertsons, Smith etc. Can I OC/CC there ?

Gas stations ???

I guess the 51% rule applies ?!?!?

PM me your Ph# in case I need to ask some things in more depth, if you don't mind

rodbender · Oct 3, 2008

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You can carry anywhere in a vehicle, but MUST be concealed at all times. No OC in Texas at all.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/ftp/forms/ls-16.pdf

Gator5713 · Oct 4, 2008

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I'd put it in your saddle bag! And check the other states you are traveling through as you might need to unload it and lock the ammo in one bag and the gun in the other! Crossing state lines you come under federal law for 'transporting'.

Welcome to Texas! You might want to go to: www.votetexas.org and get the paperwork sent in to be able to vote here as that paperwork needs to be postmarked by the 6th!

Enjoy the ride!

KBCraig · Oct 4, 2008

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Liko81 wrote:

CHLs cannot carry into school buildings without written authorization of the administration, cannot carry at interscholastic, collegiateor professional sporting events, cannot carry into government buildings including post offices, courthouse buildings and police/fire stations...

Correction: You can carry into any state, county, or local government building (including police/fire stations) except a school building, a courthouse, a meeting of a governmental entity, or a correctional facility. Due to full preemption, no government entity may restrict carry of guns unless specifically authorized by the Legislature. Even the Legislature doesn't ban guns -- you can carry in the state capitol (just not into rooms where they're meeting).

There is a new law that allows police to disarm a CHL and secure the weapon when entering a "secure law enforcement facility", but carrying in such a place is not prohibited. It just gives them authority to disarm, and isn't mandatory any more than being disarmed during a traffic stop.

KBCraig · Oct 4, 2008

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rodbender wrote:

You can carry anywhere in a vehicle, but MUST be concealed at all times. No OC in Texas at all.

This is the de facto way things are in Texas, but that's not literally, technically, correct. Any time you meet one of the exemptions to PC 46.02 other than having a CHL or being in a car you own or control, you can carry open, concealed, loaded, unloaded, or taped to your forehead.

If you're on property you own or control, engaged in sporting activity using the gun, or "traveling" (which has never been defined in statute nor statewide court ruling), you can open carry. Meaning that, according to the law, anyone traveling can OC, even on a motorcycle. Doing so is going to invite much negative attention, and I would be very surprised at someone not being arrested and charged. A lot of what the police "know" about gun laws (especially recent changes), just isn't so.

rodbender · Oct 4, 2008

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Must be concealed in a vehicle. Traveling has been defined by the AG of Texas as traveling to anywhere. The store or to get gas or to the movies....anywhere. You can't take it out of the vehicle anywhere except in your abode, but you can carry anywhere in a vehicle, but it must be concealed.

http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/PE/content/htm/pe.010.00.000046.00.htm#46.02.00

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a
Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance
regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as
defined by Section 71.01.

KBCraig · Oct 4, 2008

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rodbender wrote:

Traveling has been defined by the AG of Texas as traveling to anywhere.

Cite, please?

rodbender · Oct 4, 2008

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KBCraig wrote:

rodbender wrote:

Traveling has been defined by the AG of Texas as traveling to anywhere.

Click to expand...

Cite, please?

I don't have a cite, but i do remember it being in the paper. It was on page5 of the local Austin Anti-American Statesman. It was in response to some local offficials saying they were going to arrest and procecute for carrying in a vehicle no matter where the person was comingfrom or going to.

KBCraig · Oct 5, 2008

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rodbender wrote:

KBCraig wrote:

rodbender wrote:

Traveling has been defined by the AG of Texas as traveling to anywhere.

Click to expand...

Cite, please?

Click to expand...

I don't have a cite, but i do remember it being in the paper. It was on page5 of the local Austin Anti-American Statesman. It was in response to some local offficials saying they were going to arrest and procecute for carrying in a vehicle no matter where the person was comingfrom or going to.

That would have been in response to the "traveling presumption" that went into effect in 2005. I don't believe there was an official AG Opinion issued over that, but he did advise them that that law created the presumption that someone was traveling any time they were in a car.

There are other ways to travel, though, which don't have that presumption.

The poor wording of the 2005 legislation led to the 2007 law that just flat-out exempts you from 46.02 if you're in a car you own or control.

rodbender · Oct 5, 2008

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KBCraig wrote:

rodbender wrote:

KBCraig wrote:

rodbender wrote:

Traveling has been defined by the AG of Texas as traveling to anywhere.

Click to expand...

Cite, please?

Click to expand...

I don't have a cite, but i do remember it being in the paper. It was on page5 of the local Austin Anti-American Statesman. It was in response to some local offficials saying they were going to arrest and procecute for carrying in a vehicle no matter where the person was comingfrom or going to.

Click to expand...

That would have been in response to the "traveling presumption" that went into effect in 2005. I don't believe there was an official AG Opinion issued over that, but he did advise them that that law created the presumption that someone was traveling any time they were in a car.

There are other ways to travel, though, which don't have that presumption.

The poor wording of the 2005 legislation led to the 2007 law that just flat-out exempts you from 46.02 if you're in a car you own or control.

What I cited is 2007 legislation

Liko81 · Oct 6, 2008

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

I will be on my MC going from SLC - Cheyenne,WY - Denver, CO - Co Springs, CO - and finally end up in Killeen, TX. Can I OC on my MC ???

Technically, yes. TPC 46.15 says that 46.02 does not apply to someone who "is travelling", and in that case there is no requirement to conceal. However, you are far better-covered if you conceal (no pun intended); the exemption for a concealed weapon while in (or on) a motor vehicleis very plain and written right into 46.02.

How about in stores the sells any type of alcohol and not for consumption, like I don't know, a Grocery Store like Albertsons, Smith etc. Can I OC/CC there ?

Gas stations ???

I guess the 51% rule applies ?!?!?

Though there are no fewer than 65 different liquorpermits issued by the State, for the purposes of the end consumer there are two major types:retail sales (liquor stores, grocery stores, convenience stores) and "club" sales (restaurants, bars, nightclubs, country clubs). The difference is whether you buy it to take it with you somewhere else, orto drink it in the building. Businessesvirtually always sell for one purpose or the other; if you buy a beer in a bar, you cannot take it beyond the exit.Likewise, it is a gross misdemeanor to drink on the grounds of a retail alcohol seller.The only majorexception is a winery, which allows patrons to buy wine by the glass, then buy a bottle to take home.

Unlicensed gun carry, meaning without a CHL, into any establishment licensed to sell or produce alcoholis a felony. With a CHL, however, it becomes legal to carry into most of these places, except for an establishment that makes 51% or more of its revenue from sales of alcohol "by the drink".

It should be pretty easy to tell if the business is of a type that would make most of its revenue from selling and serving alcohol. There is a version of the sign required to be posted by all liquor licenseesthat has a big red 51% in the background of the sign, which is required to be posted in any such establishment and gives notice that both licensed and unlicensed carry is illegal. However,the law puts the onus on the gun carrier to know whether to carry or not carry into a particular place; if the bar happens to have the standard sign, which only prohibits unlicensed carry,that is not a defense to your prosecution of unlawful carry if you walk in with your CHL and concealed weapon. The question hinges on whether they DO make that much revenue, not whether they SAY they do.

to rodbender: That is the most plainly-documented exemption, however, 46.15 says that 46.02 flat doesn't apply, at all, to a person who "is travelling", meaning a person could OC under those circumstances. The unofficial definition of"travelling" was a trip crossing three county lines, however that was not strictly followed and thus what you could or couldn't do, and when, was unclear until they specifically passed the 2007 law. The 2005 law remains effective; what the 2007 change does is force an LEO to presume that the individual is travelling when they're in their car, whether he's going one block or from El Paso to Houston.

rodbender · Oct 8, 2008

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Liko81, this is a part that you evidently missed. Effective Sept. 1, 2007

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/HB01815F.HTM

a-1)A person commits an offense if the person
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1)the handgun is in plain view

tarzan1888 · Oct 8, 2008

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UTOC-45-44 wrote:

........and finally end up in Killeen, TX........

That is some pretty country pardner.....with a great western heritage.

I have spent most of my adult life in Texas.

You "SIR" will make a great addition.

Tarzan

Liko81 · Oct 8, 2008

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rodbender wrote:

Liko81, this is a part that you evidently missed. Effective Sept. 1, 2007

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/80R/billtext/html/HB01815F.HTM

a-1)A person commits an offense if the person
intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or
her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person
or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1)the handgun is in plain view

I didn't miss it. What I'm saying is that according to the letter of 46.15, that clause, which is part of 46.02, simply does not apply to a person who is "travelling". That "traveller" law is still on the books and therefore applies; the problem with it is that there is no legal definition of the term in Texas. You can be charged with UCW if you fail to conceal; I'm saying that if you're taking a long trip it's generally easy to convince the officer, or the judge if necessary, that what you were doing was obviously "travelling". Driving around town, is generally harder to pass off as "travelling". I've said, this is now the third time, that the "three county lines" definition is an unofficial standard. That means it's more likely than not to be adhered to, but you can still find yourself charged with UCW.

None of this changes the fact thatI totally agree that 46.02 provides very black-and-white protection from prosecution for a person who CCs in a car. What I say is that it is still permissible to OC in a car under 46.15 if you are "travelling" because they did not repeal it (what they did do was pass several bills that changed46.15 without reconciling the differences), and it TOTALLY negates 46.02, including the requirement to conceal.

TPC 46.15 (b) Section 46.02 does not apply to a person who:
(1) is in the actual discharge of official duties as a
member of the armed forces or state military forces as defined by
Section 431.001, Government Code, or as a guard employed by a penal
institution;
(2) is on the person's own premises or premises under
the person's control unless the person is an employee or agent of
the owner of the premises and the person's primary responsibility
is to act in the capacity of a security guard to protect persons or
property, in which event the person must comply with Subdivision
(5);
(3) is traveling;
(4) is engaging in lawful hunting, fishing, or other
sporting activity on the immediate premises where the activity is
conducted, or is en route between the premises and the actor's
residence, if the weapon is a type commonly used in the activity;

I plucked this straight out of the Texas Statutes website. It's there. It TOTALLY negates 46.02 quite plainly. What it does not plainly do is define travelling, so it could be anything from a cross-country trip to putting one foot in front of the other to taking three steps without bouncing the basketball.

Wolf 01 · Nov 21, 2008

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Recently purchased a house in Texas and we will probably spend 4 to 5 months out of the year here. So whether we will be Texas residents is debatable. We also own a house in Florida where our residency has been for the last 30+ years. I have a Florida CCW. Does anyone know if I can pruchase a handgun in Texas?

Wolf 01 · Nov 21, 2008

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Thought I read somewhere thta you can't purchase a handgun in Texas without a Texas CHL. I guess my real question is will my Florida CCW permit work in Texas.

I saw an interesting poster at a Wal-Mart in Florida recently. It said the residents of the green states could purchase a gun in Florida. All of the states were green except California, NY, Nev and a couple of others--Ohio? I assumed it applied to lon guns since that is all Wal-Mart carries.

JimMullinsWVCDL · Nov 21, 2008

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Texas law does not prohibit Texas residents from using a concealed handgun license from another state.

However, I would recommend getting a TX CHL so you will have reciprocity with a handful of states (CO, KS, FL, MI, and SC) that will recognize a resident TX CHL but will no longer recognize your Utah CFP because you are no longer a Utah resident. I also recommend keeping & continuing to renew Your Utah permit since it will cover you in a few states that do not recognize a TX CHL (OH, NV, WA).

A TX CHL will also allow you to purchase firearms in Texas without having to go through the NICS check at the time of purchasing a firearm; your Utah permit gives you a similar exemption in Utah but federal law only provides the exemption within the state in which the permit was issued.

Moving to Texas

UTOC-45-44

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