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Thread: Virginia and the Real ID Act

  1. #1
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Mike wrote:


    The REAL ID Act is a threat to open carry rights - the draconian federalization of state issue DLs & IDs, and eventual creation of a Tri-National ID Card implicates our rights to buy handguns from dealers to open carry, and to open carry in states which require permits to OC - arguably, a gun carry license is an ID within the meaning of the REAL ID Act and many such licenses will be invalidated by the REAL ID Act over time.

    Regardless, the growing ”papers in order” PATRIOT Act mentality sweeping out nation, as evidenced by the recent rude demands by police to gun owners eating food in Virginia (Staunton & Manassas), will only be fortified if REAL actually takes effect.

    Next time you are eating food at Tony’s pizza, assuming you choose to comply with an invalid police demand for “ID,” the police response might be, “NO! I MEAN YOUR REAL ID – COUGH IT UP OR WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A RIDE TO THE STATION![/b]”


    TAKE ACTION at http://action.downsizedc.org/wyc.php?cid=30
    [/b]
    Do this for every state in which you live, work, are domiciled, go to school, own property, or have some ties.

    Here is the "personal message" I added to my web form mail salvos I fired off today:

    "States don't need to be told how to issue IDs, and Americans don't need to be told they have to carry or use IDs within our own country.

    Kill the REAL ID Act now!"
    Virginia is working on a plan against the Real ID Act.
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...091+sum+HB1587

    Real ID Act; Commonwealth's participation. Provides that the Commonwealth will not participate in the compliance of any provision of the federal Real ID Act and of any other federal law, regulation, or policy that would compromise the economic privacy or biometric data of any resident of the Commonwealth.

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    Bad link, dude.

  3. #3
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    Glock27Bill wrote:
    Bad link, dude.
    I didn't provide the link in Mike's quote, just had the post there for reference.

    Does the one to the bill work for you?

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    Ihre Papiere, bitte.

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    Sure, states can decide on how to handle the ID requirements and refuse to go along with the program.

    But here is the problem..... The states obtain money from the feds for their participation in certain programs.

    The government is serious about this one and that is why so many states are scrambling to get an ID in place that satisfies the government and the residents of the state in regards to privacy.

    If the state refuses and sticks to their current ID system.... they are going to loose federal money.

    No big deal, right? Tell the feds to keep their cash!!!

    But that money is being used to support program and services. So without it.. the state would need to replace it somehow. The only was is to cut programs and raise taxes.

    So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

    Goodluck making everyone happy..

  6. #6
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Sure, states can decide on how to handle the ID requirements and refuse to go along with the program.

    But here is the problem..... The states obtain money from the feds for their participation in certain programs.

    The government is serious about this one and that is why so many states are scrambling to get an ID in place that satisfies the government and the residents of the state in regards to privacy.

    If the state refuses and sticks to their current ID system.... they are going to loose federal money.

    No big deal, right? Tell the feds to keep their cash!!!

    But that money is being used to support program and services. So without it.. the state would need to replace it somehow. The only was is to cut programs and raise taxes.

    So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

    Goodluck making everyone happy..
    What federal funding is associated with or will be denied if Real ID is adopted.

    Part of the issues that states are having is the Feds passed it, but provide no funding.

    There is the threat of access to certain places without a Real ID standard state ID, but passports and other ID will still be accepted.

    Some facts: http://www.washingtontechnology.com/...4/31156-1.html

    http://news.cnet.com/Federal-buildin...3-6229133.html

    Please provide information on the threat to withhold funds if states do not adopted Real ID.



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    possumboy wrote:
    What federal funding is associated with or will be denied if Real ID is adopted.

    Part of the issues that states are having is the Feds passed it, but provide no funding.

    There is the threat of access to certain places without a Real ID standard state ID, but passports and other ID will still be accepted.
    I have not looked that deeply into the matter.

    As with most government programs... they are optional to be adopted by the states and the way to get them to go with the program is to throw some financial assistance their way.

    A feasible situation would be as follows....

    The feds will help pay to implement the program and minimize the cost if you do it now. The state declines but a few years later they see that they need to get on board because the licenses and ID cards for the state residents are no longer valid for xyz.

    So now the state wants to get on board but they have to pay the entire cost without any assistance from the feds. So now they need cash to fund the project.

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    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    I have not looked that deeply into the matter.

    As with most government programs... they are optional to be adopted by the states and the way to get them to go with the program is to throw some financial assistance their way.

    A feasible situation would be as follows....

    The feds will help pay to implement the program and minimize the cost if you do it now. The state declines but a few years later they see that they need to get on board because the licenses and ID cards for the state residents are no longer valid for xyz.

    So now the state wants to get on board but they have to pay the entire cost without any assistance from the feds. So now they need cash to fund the project.
    Look deeper next time before replying. The Feds are not offering to help.

    The feasible situation does not exist within the Real ID Act. It would have to be redone.

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    possumboy wrote:
    Look deeper next time before replying. The Feds are not offering to help.

    The feasible situation does not exist within the Real ID Act. It would have to be redone.
    YES SIR!! I was unaware I was taking orders from you and not entitled to join inon anydiscussion.

    We are all entitled to give our opinion and ideas. You are in no position to tell anyone what they should do before posting.

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    IOW there is no duty associated with the First Amendment Right of free speech. I disagree. What is the difference between a sophomoric opinion and an adult opinion?

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    IOW there is no duty associated with the First Amendment Right of free speech. I disagree. What is the difference between a sophomoric opinion and an adult opinion?
    If nobody could participate in a free and open discussion on a topic without first learning everything to possibly know about it.. there would be no open discussion. It would be the passing of information that both parties already know.

    So what would be the point?

    The idea of this very board... is for those that are interested can learn by participating in an open dialog and discovering things they may not have known.

    The very premise that you cannot talk about a topic unless you have studied it in depthis moronic!!

    I could use this very logic on every thread that peoplehave posted in regard to state laws. Yet.. I understand that not everything is known so I pass along details to help them learn and expand their knowledge.

    I am not going toorder them to leave and come back when they know everything about state laws.That is just asinine.

    How can you contrive some type of "duty" out of a open discussion anyway?

    Not all of us are rocket scientists like you Doug.

  12. #12
    Regular Member possumboy's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    possumboy wrote:
    Look deeper next time before replying. The Feds are not offering to help.

    The feasible situation does not exist within the Real ID Act. It would have to be redone.
    YES SIR!! I was unaware I was taking orders from you and not entitled to join inon anydiscussion.

    We are all entitled to give our opinion and ideas. You are in no position to tell anyone what they should do before posting.

    Try not speaking with authority when you have no idea or provide the facts to backup your statements.

    You could also realize that it wasn't an attack on you, you just seemed to take it personally. I could really care less if you talk or not. Just don't make statement of facts that aren't true, or qualify with an "I believe" statement.

    This side conversation is over.


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    possumboy wrote:
    Try not speaking with authority when you have no idea or provide the facts to backup your statements.

    You could also realize that it wasn't an attack on you, you just seemed to take it personally. I could really care less if you talk or not. Just don't make statement of facts that aren't true, or qualify with an "I believe" statement.

    This side conversation is over.
    Speaking with authority? Where did my opinion come off as authority. My opinion on this topic has no more authority than yours.

    I could only speak with authority if I was actually employed by the state and worked inthe area of grants or ID cards. Clearly... I do not!

    I am working off what I believe to be true from information I received in the past.I have not seen anything from youto back up what you have claimed either. So what you are saying is only a belief until you have proven it to be true.

    Many of us may not know all the details but that is why come here to discover what we do not know. Your logic is flawed in that you cannot learn anything here until you have already learned all that there is to know someplace else.

    This board is FULL of "I believe this or that" statements. Some people are right and some are wrong. They find outfrom others who guide them in the right direction. Not submit they leave and return when they are all knowing on the topic.

    "Look deeper next time before replying."

    This was not posted as a suggestion. It was posted as an order. Nowhere was itoptional.

    Perhaps you need to modify how you post a suggestion in the future.

    Enough on the matter.. Let's move forward.

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    The state of Virginiaalready capturesthe minimumdetails as required by the feds for the Real ID card.Virginia is concernedabout requiring the display of the home address since the state is aware of the safety concerns of others who may currently use an alternate address.


    The state is OBVIOUSLY concerned about the address issue and is looking for a way out of this requirement.


    There is also federal funding that may be available as the implementation is going to be costly. Taking advantage of any federal money will likely be done while it is available.


    DHS plan for implementation and $6 million is earmarked for pilot projects to integrate hardware, software, and information management systems.

    Though most of the requirements are either already met on Virginia’s current cards or will be met when Virginia transitions to central issue, display of principal residence on the credential itself could pose a hardship or present safety and privacy concerns for many Virginia residents.



    Virginia code section §46.2-342 currently requires applicants for DL/IDs to provide acceptable proof of their Virginia residential address. Once they have done so, they are permitted, by law, to display an alternate Virginia address on their DL/ID rather than their residence address. This allowance was made to provide for enhanced privacy and personal safety.



    Under the REAL ID Act, the requirement that the residential address be displayed on the credential could pose a hardship to individuals, such as victims of stalkers or domestic abuse, who, for their own safety, need to keep their addresses private. As currently written, the Act would force individuals in these situations to display their residence address on their DL/ID.

    It is assumed that this requirement was included in the Act to ensure that law enforcement and other entities would be able to determine the bearer’s residence when looking at the credential. However, consideration should be given to the fact that law enforcement and other governmental entities are currently able to gain access to DMV records or information for official purposes, and therefore, are able to gain access to residence addresses. This calls into question whether it is necessary to put residents at risk by displaying the residence address on the credential.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    If the state refuses and sticks to their current ID system.... they are going to loose federal money.

    No big deal, right? Tell the feds to keep their cash!!!
    Compliance usually costs more than would be lost. And even when it doesn't, sometimes it's worth it to give Washington the single-digit salute.

    This is why New Hampshire forgoes the federal highway funds they lose by not having mandatory seatbelt laws.


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    KBCraig wrote:
    Compliance usually costs more than would be lost. And even when it doesn't, sometimes it's worth it to give Washington the single-digit salute.

    This is why New Hampshire forgoes the federal highway funds they lose by not having mandatory seatbelt laws.
    It appears there are two ways it can work... your current license would be the REAL ID and simply contain some additional security features since the rest of the info is already on it.

    Or the alternative is to allow people to get an optional REAL ID card.

    Finally.... your example of NH is what I was eluding to earlier. The feds give money to the state but requires seat belt laws. The same thing could happen in thatthe feds"could" give additional funds to states that adopt the REAL ID program.

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    KBCraig wrote:
    SNIP This is why New Hampshire forgoes the federal highway funds they lose by not having mandatory seatbelt laws.


    I guess NH is smart enough to know that the feds can't give money without first taking it.

    Sort of a, "We'll take some from you, but give it back for abc, if you do xyz."
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Tomahawk wrote:
    Last edited on Sat Oct 4th, 2008 05:54 pm by Tomahawk
    One of these days, you're gonna bite your tongue---off.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

    Goodluck making everyone happy..
    Forum,

    This is a nasty little tactic--make the opposition seem overwhelming.Add a hint of invalidation toward the listener's thoughts.

    And then speak from the premise that its important making everyone happy.

    Why would the listener bother trying if he bought this line of reasoning?


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Citizen wrote:
    LEO 229 wrote:
    SNIP So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

    Goodluck making everyone happy..
    Forum,

    This is a nasty little tactic--make the opposition seem overwhelming.Add a hint of invalidation toward the listener's thoughts.

    And then speak from the premise that its important making everyone happy.

    Why would the listener bother trying if he bought this line of reasoning?

    What in the "F" are you talking about??!!

    You really do read way too much into things.

    You are so far gone it is not funny....

    You really do need to lighten up. There is no conspiracy on my part here. We are all discussing things in a forum.

    How about having lunch with me some day? I really do need to meet you and see if you are that I expect you to be.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TexasNative's Avatar
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    Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    LEO 229 wrote:
    Sure, states can decide on how to handle the ID requirements and refuse to go along with the program.

    But here is the problem..... The states obtain money from the feds for their participation in certain programs.

    The government is serious about this one and that is why so many states are scrambling to get an ID in place that satisfies the government and the residents of the state in regards to privacy.

    If the state refuses and sticks to their current ID system.... they are going to loose federal money.

    No big deal, right? Tell the feds to keep their cash!!!

    But that money is being used to support program and services. So without it.. the state would need to replace it somehow. The only was is to cut programs and raise taxes.

    So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

    Goodluck making everyone happy..
    The federal$ asociated with Real ID is only for the direct costs of comprominsing citizens personal data, er I mean compliance, with the act.

    If Virginia does not participate there will not be additional Real ID costs to Virginia. So VA would not have the need to replace the"lost" Real ID federal give away $.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

  24. #24
    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    093801616

    HOUSE BILL NO. 1587
    Offered January 14, 2009
    Prefiled September 15, 2008 A BILL to authorize the Commonwealth's lack of participation in the compliance of any provision of the Real ID Act.
    ----------
    Patron-- Marshall, R.G.
    ----------
    Committee Referral Pending
    ----------
    Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

    1. § 1. Participation in the Real ID Act of 2005.

    A. For purposes of this Act, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this Act except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

    "Biometric data" means information relating to a biological characteristic of an individual that makes that individual unique from any other individual, including, but not limited to, the following:

    1. Fingerprints, palm prints, and other means for measuring or recording ridge pattern or fingertip characteristics.

    2. Facial feature pattern characteristics.

    3. Behavior characteristics of a handwritten signature, such as shape, speed, pressure, pen angle, or sequence.

    4. Voice data used for comparing live speech with a previously created speech model of an individual's voice.

    5. Iris recognition data containing color or texture patterns or codes.

    6. Keystroke dynamics, measuring pressure applied to key pads.

    7. Hand geometry, measuring hand characteristics, including the shape and length of fingers, in three dimensions.

    8. Retinal scans, reading through the pupil to measure blood vessels lining the retina.

    9. Deoxyribonucleic acid or ribonucleic acid.

    "Economic privacy" means the privacy of an individual that relates to a right, privilege, or reasonable expectation that certain information is required by law to be held confidential or is otherwise considered to be confidential to that individual, including, but not limited to:

    1. Information included in a tax return required by law to be filed with the federal, state, or local government.

    2. Information on financial transactions conducted by or on behalf of the individual.

    3. Information on investment transactions conducted by or on behalf of the individual.

    "Real ID Act of 2005" means Division B of the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005 (Public Law 109-13, 119 Stat. 302).

    B. Neither the Governor nor the Department of Motor Vehicles nor any other agency of the Commonwealth shall participate in the compliance of any provision of the Real ID Act of 2005 and any other federal law, regulation, or policy that would compromise the economic privacy or biometric data of any resident of the Commonwealth.

    [line]
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitableand let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come . PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    TexasNative wrote:
    Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.
    +1000

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