Virginia and the Real ID Act

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Citizen wrote:

LEO 229 wrote:

SNIP So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

Goodluck making everyone happy.. :lol:

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Forum,

This is a nasty little tactic--make the opposition seem overwhelming.Add a hint of invalidation toward the listener's thoughts.

And then speak from the premise that its important making everyone happy.

Why would the listener bother trying if he bought this line of reasoning?

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What in the "F" are you talking about??!!

You really do read way too much into things.

You are so far gone it is not funny.... :lol:

You really do need to lighten up. There is no conspiracy on my part here. We are all discussing things in a forum.

How about having lunch with me some day? I really do need to meet you and see if you are that I expect you to be.

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Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.

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LEO 229 wrote:

Sure, states can decide on how to handle the ID requirements and refuse to go along with the program.

But here is the problem..... The states obtain money from the feds for their participation in certain programs.

The government is serious about this one and that is why so many states are scrambling to get an ID in place that satisfies the government and the residents of the state in regards to privacy.

If the state refuses and sticks to their current ID system.... they are going to loose federal money.

No big deal, right? Tell the feds to keep their cash!!!

But that money is being used to support program and services. So without it.. the state would need to replace it somehow. The only was is to cut programs and raise taxes.

So now you are up against all the people in the state that could care less about your thoughts in a national ID system. They want those services they currently have and they do NOT want to pay higher taxes.

Goodluck making everyone happy.. :lol:

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The federal$ asociated with Real ID is only for the direct costs of comprominsing citizens personal data, er I mean compliance, with the act.

If Virginia does not participate there will not be additional Real ID costs to Virginia. So VA would not have the need to replace the"lost" Real ID federal give away $.

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093801616

HOUSE BILL NO. 1587
Offered January 14, 2009
Prefiled September 15, 2008 A BILL to authorize the Commonwealth's lack of participation in the compliance of any provision of the Real ID Act.
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Patron-- Marshall, R.G.
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Committee Referral Pending
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Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. § 1. Participation in the Real ID Act of 2005.

A. For purposes of this Act, the following words and phrases shall have the meanings respectively ascribed to them in this Act except in those instances where the context clearly indicates a different meaning:

"Biometric data" means information relating to a biological characteristic of an individual that makes that individual unique from any other individual, including, but not limited to, the following:

1. Fingerprints, palm prints, and other means for measuring or recording ridge pattern or fingertip characteristics.

2. Facial feature pattern characteristics.

3. Behavior characteristics of a handwritten signature, such as shape, speed, pressure, pen angle, or sequence.

4. Voice data used for comparing live speech with a previously created speech model of an individual's voice.

5. Iris recognition data containing color or texture patterns or codes.

6. Keystroke dynamics, measuring pressure applied to key pads.

7. Hand geometry, measuring hand characteristics, including the shape and length of fingers, in three dimensions.

8. Retinal scans, reading through the pupil to measure blood vessels lining the retina.

9. Deoxyribonucleic acid or ribonucleic acid.

"Economic privacy" means the privacy of an individual that relates to a right, privilege, or reasonable expectation that certain information is required by law to be held confidential or is otherwise considered to be confidential to that individual, including, but not limited to:

1. Information included in a tax return required by law to be filed with the federal, state, or local government.

2. Information on financial transactions conducted by or on behalf of the individual.

3. Information on investment transactions conducted by or on behalf of the individual.

"Real ID Act of 2005" means Division B of the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005 (Public Law 109-13, 119 Stat. 302).

B. Neither the Governor nor the Department of Motor Vehicles nor any other agency of the Commonwealth shall participate in the compliance of any provision of the Real ID Act of 2005 and any other federal law, regulation, or policy that would compromise the economic privacy or biometric data of any resident of the Commonwealth.

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TexasNative wrote:

Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.

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+1000 :lol:

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CLEO wrote:

What in the "F" are you talking about??!!

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When you point an accusatory finger there are three others pointing back at a fool. In this case x1000.

YELLOW CARD for the "F" bomb!

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Doug Huffman wrote:

CLEO wrote:

What in the "F" are you talking about??!!

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When you point an accusatory finger there are three others pointing back at a fool. In this case x1000.

YELLOW CARD for the "F" bomb!

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Rule #3

3) Keep the profanity to a minimum - and then, after you find yourselves using it, go back after you have reflected and edit it out, especially those F-Bombs! Though this area of the web site is a bit of free speech area, the threads necessarily reflect upon the open carry movement as the press and general public do read our postings. Please go back and search your posts and edit out those F-bombs, thanks!



The owner has clearly identified that profanity is permitted here. He does not desire members to use the actual word that is represented by the letter "F" and has asked the actual wordas aka "F Bomb" be removed.

The letter "F" is not profanity and must be why he used it in the rule #3. Nothing like telling people not to do it and then do it yourself in the very rule prohibiting it to be used.



Taking notice to your reply where you modified the authors name to "CLEO" as has been used in the past in a derogatory fashion.... I am not sure why you felt this was required.

You recently advised me"Chat in public and save your self-serving concern for the gullible. You don't have carte blanch to write whatever you want un-criticised."

You feel the need to criticise most everything I say..I have no problem with that when ithas somevalid purpose. But I fail to see how using "CLEO" helps as thisis nothing more than a personal attack and nothing to do with what was said.



Do you remember we buried the hatchet??

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=15825&forum_id=65&jump_to=259338#p259338

I guess it was in my back. :uhoh:



So it is clear in this latest post that you really have no desire to put aside your differences. You enjoy what you do and you cannot help yourself. You are compelled to belittle others.



I hope that all the members here can see that I have tried relentlessly to resolve any issues between you and I. It is becoming obvious that you simply cannot control yourself.

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LEO 229,

Honestly the animosity between you and Doug could probably go a long way to solving our nations energy problems.

REAL ID is going to be a very importantissue here next year, so please find another thread for the hatchets.

Some relevant topics for the thread:

1) Non-participation in REAL ID is cost neutral.

2) Participation in REAL ID runs the REAL Risk of divulging private information and a certainty of degradation of personal liberties.

3) REAL ID is back door gun registration.

Care to comment?


Edit for my stupid spelling error.

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Another problem with states not going along was that people without "Real" IDs were going to be excluded from federal buildings and flights.

Is that still the case?

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The Donkey wrote:

Another problem with states not going along was that people without "Real" IDs were going to be excluded from federal buildings and flights.

Is that still the case?

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Didn't know about the federal buildings but the flights was a big one and got the SC legislature to act. I think it is still the case.

TexasNative wrote:

Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.

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I agree with that.

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The threat to exclude from Federal Buildings would be a nightmare of litigation. Federal Court Bulidings, Social Security Offices, VA hospitals? not really

The treat for air travel would be for more intense screenings for those withoutREAL ID.

I think that this will pass both the house and Senate. Governor Tim, no balls, Kaine will probably veto it. After all he is a goose stepping statist tool.

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The Donkey wrote:

Another problem with states not going along was that people without "Real" IDs were going to be excluded from federal buildings and flights.

Is that still the case?

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There would have to be an alternative. I thought passports were valid.

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TexasNative wrote:

Some conversations here point out why some like to call us "gun nuts." Even when the conversation isn't about guns, some of us are still clearly nuts.

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If refusing to compromise about personal freedom and liberty makes someone a nut, then call me crazy.

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Thundar wrote:

LEO 229,

Honestly the animosity between you and Doug could probably go a long way to solving our nations energy problems.

REAL ID is going to be a very importantissue here next year, so please find another thread for the hatchets.

Some relevant topics for the thread:

1) Non-participation in REAL ID is cost neutral.

2) Participation in REAL ID runs the REAL Risk of divulging private information and a certainty of degradation of personal liberties.

3) REAL ID is back door gun registration.

Care to comment?


Edit for my stupid spelling error.

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True dat'!Doug does not respond to PMs so this was the only avenue. I apologize to the board for having to work out issues in this manner.

To your points....

1. The states "could" save money by not participating. No additional costs born by the state with or without federal money. But the people of each state may call for the change when they discover they cannot fly with their current ID. There will be a great many that need theREAL ID.

The alternative... do not fly.


2. What private information is going to be divulged?The information is already being used on your current state issued ID.In what I read.... there will stricter requirements to prove who you claim to be to get the ID. Itwill also have additional features to make it "harder" to duplicate.

3. How is it a back door togun registration. I have not seen anything in print to indicate this. the process to buy a gun is no different than providing your information to a FFL dealer. It is not kept in a electronic database that is searchable by the ATF. The ATF must still visit the dealer and obtain the information when necessary.

And if you feel so inclined.... private purchases are paperless. :lol:

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LEO 229 wrote:

Thundar wrote:

LEO 229,

Honestly the animosity between you and Doug could probably go a long way to solving our nations energy problems.

REAL ID is going to be a very importantissue here next year, so please find another thread for the hatchets.

Some relevant topics for the thread:

1) Non-participation in REAL ID is cost neutral.

2) Participation in REAL ID runs the REAL Risk of divulging private information and a certainty of degradation of personal liberties.

3) REAL ID is back door gun registration.

Care to comment?


Edit for my stupid spelling error.

Click to expand...

True dat'!Doug does not respond to PMs so this was the only avenue. I apologize to the board for having to work out issues in this manner.

To your points....

1. The states "could" save money by not participating. No additional costs born by the state with or without federal money. But the people of each state may call for the change when they discover they cannot fly with their current ID. There will be a great many that need theREAL ID.

The alternative... do not fly.


2. What private information is going to be divulged?The information is already being used on your current state issued ID.In what I read.... there will stricter requirements to prove who you claim to be to get the ID. Itwill also have additional features to make it "harder" to duplicate.

3. How is it a back door togun registration. I have not seen anything in print to indicate this. the process to buy a gun is no different than providing your information to a FFL dealer. It is not kept in a electronic database that is searchable by the ATF. The ATF must still visit the dealer and obtain the information when necessary.

And if you feel so inclined.... private purchases are paperless. :lol:

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Flying is not restricted without Real ID. Govt. claims it will have more screenings for those without the right papers.

SSNs, drivers license numbers, biometric data and birth certificate information are required to be kept by states and released to all other states (the feds get the info too) for the procesing of information. This act clearly violates the privacy laws of many states, and even the constitutions of a few. The Feds share their data base with other networks, including Interpol and Mexico. Thanks, but no thanks. Keep yer paws off my private information.

BATFE is already pushing for digital logs instead of bound books. Purchase data already goes through Terrorist Tracking Information Centers which have huge data bases, which are exempt from privacy law and FOIA law. Real ID makes for a defacto gun registry. Don't think the coppers will do it? Look what happened in PA. and Md.

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Thundar wrote:

Real ID makes for a defacto gun registry.

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You keep making that claim, but you never connect the dots that support your statement, Thundar. Please detail for us how having a Real ID has anything to do with my guns.

There's no requirement for Real ID for gun purchases even from an FFL, and even if you do produce a Real ID as part of your ID necessary for the purchase, it contains no more information on it than your current Driver's License.

Just because BATFE wants to use electronic record keeping instead of paper doesn't mean it's going to happen, and even if it happens, it doesn't mean it will be searchable remotely by BATFE, or forwarded to them. Not that it couldn't happen, and not that we shouldn't keep our eyes on them to jump into action if they do try to implement that, but that has exactly zero to do with Real ID.

So again I have to ask you, what's your support for the claim that Real ID would be a de facto gun registry?

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TexasNative wrote:

Thundar wrote:

Real ID makes for a defacto gun registry.

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You keep making that claim, but you never connect the dots that support your statement, Thundar. Please detail for us how having a Real ID has anything to do with my guns.

There's no requirement for Real ID for gun purchases even from an FFL, and even if you do produce a Real ID as part of your ID necessary for the purchase, it contains no more information on it than your current Driver's License.

Just because BATFE wants to use electronic record keeping instead of paper doesn't mean it's going to happen, and even if it happens, it doesn't mean it will be searchable remotely by BATFE, or forwarded to them. Not that it couldn't happen, and not that we shouldn't keep our eyes on them to jump into action if they do try to implement that, but that has exactly zero to do with Real ID.

So again I have to ask you, what's your support for the claim that Real ID would be a de facto gun registry?

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See the OP about how this affects gun owners... <snip> below

Mike wrote:

The REAL ID Act is a threat to open carry rights - the draconian federalization of state issue DLs & IDs, and eventual creation of a Tri-National ID Card implicates our rights to buy handguns from dealers to open carry, and to open carry in states which require permits to OC - arguably, a gun carry license is an ID within the meaning of the REAL ID Act and many such licenses will be invalidated by the REAL ID Act over time.

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Those are still more claims without substantiation, PB. Yes, you can say the Real ID could be turned into all these things, but that's not a part of the Real ID Act, and I haven't seen anyone present any evidence that there's anything more to the Act than what it says.

Just because you wave your hands in the air and claim that "they" are going to turn the United States into George Orwell's 1984 doesn't make it true. Connect the dots for us. Help us understand that there's more to these claims than just your (unsubstantiated, IMHO) opinion.

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TexasNative wrote:

Those are still more claims without substantiation, PB. Yes, you can say the Real ID could be turned into all these things, but that's not a part of the Real ID Act, and I haven't seen anyone present any evidence that there's anything more to the Act than what it says.

Just because you wave your hands in the air and claim that "they" are going to turn the United States into George Orwell's 1984 doesn't make it true. Connect the dots for us. Help us understand that there's more to these claims than just your (unsubstantiated, IMHO) opinion.

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Nobody said they would, just that they could. It is easier to fight the assault before they take the beachhead.

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possumboy wrote:

Nobody said they would, just that they could.

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Nope, that's not correct.


Thundar wrote:

Real ID makes for a defacto gun registry.

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There isn't anything prospective about that statement. It's stated as fact, as are many other similar claims. I'm asking for substantiation of those claims.

Yes, I agree that Real ID could potentially be turned into A Very Bad Thing, but for that to happen, a very, very, very long string of "ifs" must happen, the vast majority of which are nowhere close to happening right now.

As I said earlier, I'm as big an advocate as the next guy of keeping an eye on Congress, BATFE and anyone else who would look to further infringe on our rights. But there's a huge difference between "what they might do to us" and "what this does to us."

Progress requires some risk. Parker v. The District of Columbia and then DC vs Heller was a huge risk for us, which was narrowly averted by the 5-4 vote in the Supreme Court. By the same token, having a somewhat standardized basis for IDs can help improve our security, but it's not without some risks. What I recommend doing is keeping the benefits of such a program while working our hardest at minimizing or eliminating the risks.

Otherwise, it looks to me like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Update: Edited to remove an unintentional and undesired link.