Thundar
Regular Member
imported post
TexasNative wrote:
I cannot show you what REAL ID will be used for, but I can show you what REAL ID could be used for and the existing political push to use REAL ID as a form of gun control.
Here are some quick links to show what the distributed database is capable of, and what others think it is capable of and a link from Washington Post with a candidate push to require REAL ID for gun purchases.
Link: http://www.unrealid.com/what.html
• A Back-Door National Gun Registry.
There are many states that don't respect the 2nd Amendment the way we do here in Alaska: gun registration in those states is often tied to drivers licenses. Once these state firearms databases are linked together with existing federal data systems, there begins the national gun registry. All that is then needed is to force all the pro-gun states to comply.
Link: http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showtopic=15117&pid=214673&mode=threaded&show=&st=0
"The implementation of REAL ID presents a significant threat to gun ownership in the United States of America." added Michael Robertson, LPPa Chair.
By participating in REAL ID, Pennsylvanians will be subjected to scrutiny by a host of federal agencies with every swipe of a REAL ID card. This is de facto gun registration, only worse. Once a gun buyer is identified, other information such as military service, purchases, rentals, travel, and medical history will be easily cross-referenced and subjected to interpretation. It's inevitable that politicized standards will emerge that can be used to deny Pennsylvanians the right to keep and bear arms -- everyone except violent criminals and politicians' bodyguards.
LPPa Media Relations Chair, Doug Leard, added, "A few years ago when the NICS [National InstaCheck System] computer system crashed, no one could be validated for a gun purchase. A political agenda is one thing and bureaucratic incompetence is another. When a state submits to REAL ID, it submits its citizens to the possibility of being denied not just gun purchases, but ATM cash, credit card purchases and even a critical prescription pickup. Pennsylvania must emphatically reject REAL ID."
Link: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/10/mayors_query_the_candidates_on.html
9. Secure Identification for Gun Purchases: In 2013, the federal "Real ID Act" will go into full effect. In order to get into a federal building or to get on a commercial airplane, all persons will have to show secure identification that is compliant with the Real ID Act. However, unless the law is amended, people would not need to show Real ID-compliant identification to buy guns. Requiring gun purchasers to show Real ID-compliant identification could help prevent sales to persons already prohibited from buying firearms, including felons (who might be able to more easily fake non compliant IDs) and undocumented aliens (who, unless INS has flagged them individually in the background check system, can now buy guns by misrepresenting their status on the background check form). Do you support a change in federal law to require that gun purchasers show Real ID-compliant identification by 2013?
Link: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070502-stop-the-real-id-act-by-may-8.html
The end result of the Real ID Act's database connectivity requirements and the federated query service is that someone sitting in a DMV can use a single query to pull a citizen's data from all state DMVs and federal databases. This is functionally a national citizen database, even if citizens' data is physically spread out over multiple records in multiple databases at multiple sites with multiple levels of access control, logging, and oversight. So like I said above: all of the functionality of a centralized database, but with none of the attendant security, oversight, and auditing benefits of a single, locked-down implementation.
Ultimately, DHS's objection that Real ID does not create a "national database" is only sustainable using a narrow definition of "database." But if by "database" you mean, "I can write one query to pull data from multiple records," then the Act and DHS's proposed interpretation of it will indeed create a "national database." With the NPRM, DHS has taken the already terrible idea of a national citizen database, and then made it infinitely worse in the name of appeasing privacy advocates.
Link: http://www.geekswithguns.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=565
Many states don't make drivers prove they are legally in the country, but the law will now demand such do*****entation. It also calls for states to run license applications through a federal database known as SAVE that was launched by a 1986 law aimed at preventing illegal immigrants from receiving federal benefits. One problem, though, is that the "SAVE database is notoriously unreliable ... months behind," said South Carolina's response to the survey.
Link: http://scogginfamily.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/25/1611046-the-intellectual-debate-on-gun-control
In researching this I stumbled across an excellent site that compiles all U.S. federal gun legislation;
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=U.S._gun_control_legislation
Yes Bill it is very interesting because the connections are not out in the open. Once Real ID is in place all purchases will be tracked by the ID you show to your Gun shop, walmart or what ever. Ammo sales can be limited along with any other whittling legislation they can sneak through. "Sorry Sir, you've reached your 9mil limit." " Sorry sir, you already have a Sig 9mil. The new law says you can't have two."
This database the DHS wants will be used by all government to track all sales of firearms. Once they know where they are, it's easier to ask for them. It's very naive to think DHS can't, won't or doesn't intend to get into the gun control business. They've shown that they want to and the one court case against them is like a mosquito bite. The battle will continue.
TexasNative wrote:
Fair enough
I cannot show you what REAL ID will be used for, but I can show you what REAL ID could be used for and the existing political push to use REAL ID as a form of gun control.
Here are some quick links to show what the distributed database is capable of, and what others think it is capable of and a link from Washington Post with a candidate push to require REAL ID for gun purchases.
Link: http://www.unrealid.com/what.html
• A Back-Door National Gun Registry.
There are many states that don't respect the 2nd Amendment the way we do here in Alaska: gun registration in those states is often tied to drivers licenses. Once these state firearms databases are linked together with existing federal data systems, there begins the national gun registry. All that is then needed is to force all the pro-gun states to comply.
Link: http://www.zdlr.net/board/index.php?showtopic=15117&pid=214673&mode=threaded&show=&st=0
"The implementation of REAL ID presents a significant threat to gun ownership in the United States of America." added Michael Robertson, LPPa Chair.
By participating in REAL ID, Pennsylvanians will be subjected to scrutiny by a host of federal agencies with every swipe of a REAL ID card. This is de facto gun registration, only worse. Once a gun buyer is identified, other information such as military service, purchases, rentals, travel, and medical history will be easily cross-referenced and subjected to interpretation. It's inevitable that politicized standards will emerge that can be used to deny Pennsylvanians the right to keep and bear arms -- everyone except violent criminals and politicians' bodyguards.
LPPa Media Relations Chair, Doug Leard, added, "A few years ago when the NICS [National InstaCheck System] computer system crashed, no one could be validated for a gun purchase. A political agenda is one thing and bureaucratic incompetence is another. When a state submits to REAL ID, it submits its citizens to the possibility of being denied not just gun purchases, but ATM cash, credit card purchases and even a critical prescription pickup. Pennsylvania must emphatically reject REAL ID."
Link: http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/12/10/mayors_query_the_candidates_on.html
9. Secure Identification for Gun Purchases: In 2013, the federal "Real ID Act" will go into full effect. In order to get into a federal building or to get on a commercial airplane, all persons will have to show secure identification that is compliant with the Real ID Act. However, unless the law is amended, people would not need to show Real ID-compliant identification to buy guns. Requiring gun purchasers to show Real ID-compliant identification could help prevent sales to persons already prohibited from buying firearms, including felons (who might be able to more easily fake non compliant IDs) and undocumented aliens (who, unless INS has flagged them individually in the background check system, can now buy guns by misrepresenting their status on the background check form). Do you support a change in federal law to require that gun purchasers show Real ID-compliant identification by 2013?
Link: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070502-stop-the-real-id-act-by-may-8.html
The end result of the Real ID Act's database connectivity requirements and the federated query service is that someone sitting in a DMV can use a single query to pull a citizen's data from all state DMVs and federal databases. This is functionally a national citizen database, even if citizens' data is physically spread out over multiple records in multiple databases at multiple sites with multiple levels of access control, logging, and oversight. So like I said above: all of the functionality of a centralized database, but with none of the attendant security, oversight, and auditing benefits of a single, locked-down implementation.
Ultimately, DHS's objection that Real ID does not create a "national database" is only sustainable using a narrow definition of "database." But if by "database" you mean, "I can write one query to pull data from multiple records," then the Act and DHS's proposed interpretation of it will indeed create a "national database." With the NPRM, DHS has taken the already terrible idea of a national citizen database, and then made it infinitely worse in the name of appeasing privacy advocates.
Link: http://www.geekswithguns.com/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=565
Many states don't make drivers prove they are legally in the country, but the law will now demand such do*****entation. It also calls for states to run license applications through a federal database known as SAVE that was launched by a 1986 law aimed at preventing illegal immigrants from receiving federal benefits. One problem, though, is that the "SAVE database is notoriously unreliable ... months behind," said South Carolina's response to the survey.
Link: http://scogginfamily.newsvine.com/_news/2008/06/25/1611046-the-intellectual-debate-on-gun-control
DHS is using Real ID and the subsequent database as a back door into gun control. Gun owners are starting to wake up to this.
Interesting comment in that DHS has no role in restricting gun sales. In fact a surprising victory came about when an amendment to the Homeland Security Bill (S.AMDT. 4615) passed in July 2006 prohibiting officials from confiscating legally owned firearms during an emergency/disaster; the post-lesson of hurricane Katrina. In researching this I stumbled across an excellent site that compiles all U.S. federal gun legislation;
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=U.S._gun_control_legislation
- #1.2 - Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:27 AM EDT
Yes Bill it is very interesting because the connections are not out in the open. Once Real ID is in place all purchases will be tracked by the ID you show to your Gun shop, walmart or what ever. Ammo sales can be limited along with any other whittling legislation they can sneak through. "Sorry Sir, you've reached your 9mil limit." " Sorry sir, you already have a Sig 9mil. The new law says you can't have two."
This database the DHS wants will be used by all government to track all sales of firearms. Once they know where they are, it's easier to ask for them. It's very naive to think DHS can't, won't or doesn't intend to get into the gun control business. They've shown that they want to and the one court case against them is like a mosquito bite. The battle will continue.
