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Thread: Judge: Searching vehicle because occupant has a concealed handgun permit unconstitutional!

  1. #1
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    Wow. An ATF agent was offended by anti-ATF slogans on a van, so they called in local police to help track down the van, stop the driver, and search her without cause or consent. Be sure to listen to the 911 recordings.

    I'll just copy and paste the rest of the story from here:

    http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCH...218299#p218299

    ATF and police get report of a blue van driving around Pensacola on April 19 with anti-ATF slogans ("Boo ATF," "Remember the children of Waco) painted on the sides. Police eventually find the van, pull it over, and an ATF agent questions/detains the woman driver for over an hour -- during which the local press showed up. At one point, the ATF agent searched both the van and the woman apparently based on the fact that the woman had a concealed weapon permit. The woman was eventually let go without charges, but the ATF agent may or may not have told her or suggested to her to wipe the slogans off of the van. The agent/police say she was never "under arrest," the woman says she did not know that.

    Woman has now sued the ATF and the police/City of Pensacola as well as the individual ATF agent and police officers in Federal court, with the help of the ACLU, alleging her First (free speech) and Fourth (free from unreasonable search and siezure) Amendment rights were violated. The government filed for a summary judgment throwing out the suit, stating among other things that the ATF agent has qualifed immunity and that the woman consented to the search, which she denies.

    The judge largely ruled against the government, including rejecting (for now) the qualifed immunity argument, thus allowing the suit to proceed. His ruling indicated that he could not see any legal justification for the search. Keep in mind that in deciding whether to allow the suit to proceed, he must interpret facts in the light most favorable to the plaintiff, the woman driver. However, even given the government's arguments, he concluded this went well beyond a "Terry stop" and was not a legal police action.

    Of note related to the concealed weapons permit being justification for a search, the judge wrote:
    Quote:
    More importantly, Defendant [ATF Agent] contends only that it was necessary to search Plaintiff [woman driver] and her vehicle, essentially because she had a weapons permit. While Plaintiff was indeed found to have a weapon, and evidently the permit to go with it, this alone could hardly have constituted the suspicion of criminal activity upon which the Terry stop was based.

    I am not a big fan of the ACLU, but even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. This might be an interesting case to watch.

    Here is the ACLU-Florida press release on it:
    http://www.aclufl.org/news_events/in...ilAlertID=3672

    Here is a recording of various related 911/dispatch calls about the van:
    http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/atfscalls...colapolice.wma
    [I find an interesting contrast between the ATF agent's statement to the woman driver (that her slogans made the ATF people "nervous" and upset because they had friends that died at Waco) and his tone and wording when talking with the police dispatcher about trying to find some blue van...("it's no big deal"). Also, listen for his comment about how it was the FBI that first noticed the van...]

    Here is a .pdf of the judge's ruling:
    http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Kilpatrick-SJ.pdf


  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Oh, hey, the ACLU is helping someone over a gun-related civil rights issue. I guess all the members here who said the ACLU would only defend "communists" and "pedophiles" now get to eat crow, huh?

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    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Eat your own crow. Nothing says the ACLU haven't changed their rules of operation from what they were recently.

    MD

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    marshaul wrote:
    Oh, hey, the ACLU is helping someone over a gun-related civil rights issue.
    While this is "gun-related", the actual issues are free speech (the slogans), official oppression, and illegal arrest and search.


  5. #5
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Machoduck wrote:
    Eat your own crow.* Nothing says the ACLU haven't changed their rules of operation from what they were recently.*

    MD
    I never said they had. I just remember a thread a while back where a specific point of contention was whether or not the ACLU would support gun owners who'd been falsely arrested.


    KBCraig wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Oh, hey, the ACLU is helping someone over a gun-related civil rights issue.
    While this is "gun-related", the actual issues are free speech (the slogans), official oppression, and illegal arrest and search.
    Exactly.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Machoduck's Avatar
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    Perfectly stated, KBCraig.

    MD

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    So much for freedom of speech huh!! There's a new american revolution coming soon!!

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    i agree, wow

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    http://www.srpressgazette.com/news/a...atf_judge.html

    Judge approves ACLU lawsuit against ATF

    Lawsuit Claims ATF’s Unlawful Retaliation for Free Speech

    2008-10-03 12:07:00 Jeni Senter

    ACLU Director of Communications Brandon Hensler says the American Civil Liberties Union of Florida received an early victory today when Senior Federal Judge Lacey A. Collier denied the ATF’s motions for summary judgment in Kilpatrick v. U.S.

    The ACLU filed the case on April 18, 2006, on behalf of Karen J. Kilpatrick, who claimed that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) violated her Free Speech rights.

    Kilpatrick was driving her blue van in Pensacola on April 19, 2004, with the slogans “Remember the Children of Waco” and “Boo ATF” written on some of the windows when she was pulled over by police for questioning by the ATF.

    The ACLU argues in the lawsuit that her First Amendment Rights to Free Speech and her Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure were violated when officers detained her for an hour, searched her car without consent, and ordered her to remove the writing on the side of her van.

    “The ATF’s actions were unconstitutional and there was no legal justification to stop and question Ms. Kilpatrick. We believe that the ATF was trying to silence Ms. Kilpatrick and the 911 call substantiates this position,” said Bert Oram, ACLU cooperating counsel.

    “We are confident that we can win this case once the facts are demonstrated and we are pleased that we will be able to make our case in court,” he says.

    Counsel for Kilpatrick v. The United States of America are Bert Oram, ACLU cooperating attorney; and Benjamin Stevenson, ACLU of Florida staff attorney in Pensacola.

    The MP3 file of the 911 call and a PDF copy of the Order on Summary Judgment can be viewed at: http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Kilpatrick-SJ.pdf.




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    More evidence for my indictment of the lamestream media for practicing reportage by press release...

    http://www.aclufl.org/news_events/in...ilAlertID=3672

    Federal Judge Gives Go-Ahead to ACLU Lawsuit Against ATF

    Lawsuit Claims ATF’s Unlawful Retaliation for Free Speech

    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
    October 2, 2008
    CONTACT:
    Brandon Hensler, Director of Communications, (786) 363-2737 or media@aclufl.org

    PENSACOLA, Fla. – The American Civil Liberties Union of Florida received an early victory in Kilpatrick v. U.S. today when Senior Federal Judge Lacey A. Collier denied the ATF’s motions for summary judgment in the case. The ACLU filed the case on April 18, 2006, on behalf of Karen J. Kilpatrick, who claimed that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) violated her Free Speech rights.

    Kilpatrick was driving her blue van in Pensacola on April 19, 2004, with the slogans “Remember the Children of Waco” and “Boo ATF” written on some of the windows when she was pulled over by police for questioning by the ATF. The ACLU argues in the lawsuit that her First Amendment Rights to Free Speech and her Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure were violated when officers detained her for an hour, searched her car without consent, and ordered her to remove the writing on the side of her van.

    “The ATF’s actions were unconstitutional and there was no legal justification to stop and question Ms. Kilpatrick. We believe that the ATF was trying to silence Ms. Kilpatrick and the 911 call substantiates this position,” said Bert Oram, ACLU cooperating counsel. “We are confident that we can win this case once the facts are demonstrated and we are pleased that we will be able to make our case in court.”
    Counsel for Kilpatrick v. The United States of America are Bert Oram, ACLU cooperating attorney; and Benjamin Stevenson, ACLU of Florida staff attorney in Pensacola.

    The MP3 file of the 911 call can be heard at:

    http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/atfscallstopensacolapolice.wma

    and a PDF copy of today’s Order on Summary Judgment can be viewed at:

    http://www.aclufl.org/pdfs/Kilpatrick-SJ.pdf


  11. #11
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    This, beyond the issue of incredibly unprofessional conduct. The two individuals are obviously acquainted beyond professionalism.

    POLICE DISPATCHER; "Are you thinkin' this is an officer safety issue?"

    ATF AGENT: "Well, - - yeah! Ha ha ha. Whenever you've got somebody..."

  12. #12
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    Bump to the top?

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    I really liked that one question he had..... "Are we being recorded?"

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    Doug Huffman wrote:
    This, beyond the issue of incredibly unprofessional conduct. The two individuals are obviously acquainted beyond professionalism.

    POLICE DISPATCHER; "Are you thinkin' this is an officer safety issue?"

    ATF AGENT: "Well, - - yeah! Ha ha ha. Whenever you've got somebody..."
    I don't know how well the 2 involved here knew eachother but the tape indicates that this is NOT the first contact he has had with 911 regarding this.

    And then later the ATF agent asks if the call is being recorded....

    To the ATF agent...

    It is a call to 911... They are ALL recorded!

    Dofuss!



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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    Good for her and good for the ACLU. Take these ******* to court and make them pay. Jackbooted pieces of ****.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    Getting a BOLO based on hearsay about "knuckleheads" in a marked up van allegedly visiting with a former gun dealer on the annversary of the Waco fiasco is pretty lame. Glad the judge is seeing reason anyway.

    -ljp

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    disgusting government losers

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    Interesting story. I have met with an FBI agent (retired) who was at Ruby Ridge and I belive Waco who has nothing good to say about ATF and their operations at these places. ATF has nothing betterto do but fabricate casesand entrap citizens..

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    Regular Member Gunslinger's Avatar
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    I have great respect for the Secret Service. Had friends in it. And the Border Patrol and the DOD agencies. I have none for the fbi, ins or batf. This is typical of their storm trooper attitude. Kill a woman and child at Ruby Ridge; burn women and children alive at Waco; point a MP-5 at an unarmed man holding a child in FL. Real 'heroes.'

    "We must take the guns away to make the streets safe for the SS."

    A. Hitler

    Change it to "batf" and you really aren't changing it at all.
    "For any man who sheds his blood with me this day shall be my brother...And gentlemen now abed shall think themselves accursed, they were not here, and hold their manhoods cheap whilst any speaks who fought with us on Crispin's day." Henry V

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    marshaul wrote:
    Oh, hey, the ACLU is helping someone over a gun-related civil rights issue. I guess all the members here who said the ACLU would only defend "communists" and "pedophiles" now get to eat crow, huh?
    Has anyone proven yet the woman is not a communist or a pedophile?
    Revelation 1911 - And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

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    That recording is chilling to listen to. Free speech, if it involves law enforcement and especially Fed. LEO's, seems to be dead! When you have to go to court to get your rights enforced, then there is a real problem with the society in which one lives. This incident reminds me of a quote I saw:

    'It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards!'

  22. #22
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    What a numskull !! He actually asks the 911 operator if anyone else has dialed 911 because of "offensive language" on a blue van. This is clearly a waste of 911 resources.

    This tyrant, and those involved, better be losing their job over this, and their pension. What probable cause exists because a driver has a concealed weapons permit, and an offensive bumper sticker?

    I see Americans are expected to ignore or forget the behavior of the ATF. If you won't forget, then you'll be harassed and silenced through censorship. I suppose beatings and torture in secret prisons are to be seen in the next 10 years?

    What a @$(&@ great Gestapo job this was!





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    Statesman wrote:
    This tyrant, and those involved, better be losing their job over this, and their pension. What probable cause exists because a driver has a concealed weapons permit, and an offensive bumper sticker?
    Offensive bumper sticker? Nonsense. Many of the people in Escambia County would agree with it.

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    HungSquirrel wrote:
    Statesman wrote:
    This tyrant, and those involved, better be losing their job over this, and their pension. What probable cause exists because a driver has a concealed weapons permit, and an offensive bumper sticker?
    Offensive bumper sticker? Nonsense. Many of the people in Escambia County would agree with it.
    That came out wrong. That was the tyrants reasoning, not mine.

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    mobeewan wrote:
    marshaul wrote:
    Oh, hey, the ACLU is helping someone over a gun-related civil rights issue. I guess all the members here who said the ACLU would only defend "communists" and "pedophiles" now get to eat crow, huh?
    Has anyone proven yet the woman is not a communist or a pedophile?
    If she isn't now, she should consider molesting a child so the courts can't order
    her death. Only law abiding citizens risk death by starvation in FL.

    As for ACLU i'm shure that the gun issue won't be brought up at all.
    It was the piece of paper (permit) that caused the bad things to hapen, not the gun.


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