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Thread: Article: Large Turnout for 7 OCT Norfolk Council Meeting to Protest Police Stops of Open Carriers

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    Regular Member vbnative73's Avatar
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    http://hamptonroads.com/2008/10/norf...n-rights-group



    Norfolk police clashes fires up gun rights group

    By Harry Minium
    The Virginian-Pilot
    © October 5, 2008
    NORFOLK

    Once again, members of a guns-rights advocacy group are coming to City Hall, claiming their rights have been violated by the police.

    The Virginia Citizens Defense League, a Northern Virginia-based group, said 100 or more of its members will descend upon Tuesday's City Council meeting to vent their displeasure, many with guns holstered to their hips.

    The group is upset about a police confrontation involving a member carrying a weapon openly, which is legal in Virginia.

    The group last came to the City Council in August 2007, when members protested the arrest of Chet Szymecki of Yorktown at Harborfest for openly carrying a gun. The charge was dropped; Szymecki has filed a federal suit against the city.

    They also protested at that meeting about alleged harassment of Danladi Moore, a Peninsula resident who was stopped twice by police and questioned for openly carrying a gun shortly before the meeting.

    The city paid Moore $10,000 in July to prevent what could have been long and costly litigation.

    However, Moore said, he again was stopped, on Sept. 22, this time while attempting to ride a Hampton Roads Transit bus with a gun. Moore claims police took his gun, ordered him off a bus and threatened to arrest him before eventually giving the gun back and letting him go.

    Chris Amos, police spokesman, said he couldn't respond to Moore's specific claims about his September run-in with officers.

    "All I know is, we responded to a call for service," Amos said. "We are not at liberty to just refuse" to do so.

    Amos said that after Moore's previous incidents, police leaders "sent a memo out in-house reasserting the rights citizens have to carry firearms in plain view." There hasn't been time to react to the latest incident, he said.

    Philip Van Cleave, a Midlothian resident who heads the guns-rights group, said he believes Moore will sue the city over the latest incident.

    "If Norfolk doesn't begin to get it right, Danladi may wind up owning a yacht or a castle somewhere," he said. "At some point, the people of Norfolk are going to get tired of their tax money being thrown away because the police are violating a basic right," he added.

    City Council members acknowledged that the city may have erred, but they accused gun owners of being provocative.

    Councilman W. Randy Wright has a concealed-weapons permit, has won awards for marksmanship and believes in gun rights, he said. Yet he said he is appalled by anyone who walks around with a gun in a holster.

    "Walking around downtown with a gun on your hip, that's just somebody trying to get attention, somebody trying to embarrass the city," he said. "This is not Wyatt Earp in the wild, wild West. It's an urban city with lots of problems.

    "It does absolutely nothing to further the rights of the Second Amendment."

    Replied Van Cleave: "He's admitting the city has a lot of problems. That, in itself, is a reason to carry, because you may need to protect yourself."

    Van Cleave said he wonders if the incident with Moore was racially motivated, as he is black.

    Councilman Paul R. Riddick said that's ridiculous.

    "When you see a guy standing downtown in front of a bank with a gun on, what would you expect the average policeman to do?" he said. "You'd expect him to find out what the hell is going on."

    Riddick and other council members weren't aware of the financial settlement with Moore. "Before we issue another $10,000 check, we should go to the highest court in the land," he said.

    Councilman Barclay C. Winn, who is a hunter, said the guns-rights group's actions are precisely why he won't joint the NRA - the powerful lobbyists the National Rifle Association.

    "I believe in the right to bear arms," he said. "But I just don't understand why somebody feels the need to strap a gun on his side, knowing full well that people are going to be alarmed and upset. I don't understand why they have to be such big, bad macho men."

    Van Cleave said this is not about being macho - it's about exercising a constitutional right.

    "What the city of Norfolk is asking us to do is to give up one of our basic constitutional rights," he said. "Would you ask black citizens to sit in the back of the bus and shut up?"

    Riddick left while Van Cleave's group spoke during last year's meeting, saying he didn't want to dignify the group by staying. The meeting was at times tense.

    Riddick said he knows a way to ease the tension.

    "We should call Bob's Gun Shop and have him deliver eight 9-millimeters to us," he said. "We'll keep them on our desk in case we need them."



    Pilot writer Matthew Bowers contributed to this report.

    Harry Minium, (757) 446-2371, harry.minium@pilotonline.com



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    Regular Member vbnative73's Avatar
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    I made 2 comments to the article:

    1. Attention chris33

    Find yourself a new statistic. Don't just copy/paste that same old stat into every gun article you see. If that's the only stat you know, try educating yourself on the subject. Try http://www.vcdl.org or http://www.opencarry.org for starters. Trust me. You'll learn a lot.



    2. Learn the Law Councilman Riddick

    I'd welcome you to call Bob's and have them deliver those 9mms to you. However, I'd suggest asking them to deliver holsters as well, unless you want to be charged with brandishing a weapon. Learn the law or shut your mouth!


    EDIT: Several other comments have been posted after mine. I wonder why mine haven't been approved yet.....

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    Reading the article I stumbled over the similarity between the words "provocative" (used in the article) and 'proactive'.

    And I noticed the conflation of the NRA with "gun-rights groups." Gun-control is about control from the left or right.

    Riddick's closing statement is illustrative of the attitude of an unprincipled elected official that is afraid to face his armed electorate and constituency.

    Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth. NRA *******

    ps. The comment database is corrupted. I tried to log on and had to use the one time log on function to reset my password but the username associated with my e-mail address is not anything that I would use and the one time function was refused. There is a heavy thumb on the balance of journalism here.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    If you were on the fence trying to decide to make the trip to Norfolk or not, that article ought to have tipped you one way or another.

    If you are coming and want to meet danbus (Danladi Moore - soon to be the sole owner of the City of Norfolk
    "Riddick and other council members weren't aware of the financial settlement with Moore. "Before we issue another $10,000 check, we should go to the highest court in the land," he said.")
    we are meeting for dinner at Freemason Abbey before the City Copuncil meeting. Check outhttp://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/16779.htmlfor details.

    stay safe.

    skidmark

    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    I don't think that article was unfair or anything. It offered a pretty balanced argument for and against what is going on.

    I do not understand how someone can be so pro 2nd Amendment and be so anti-OC. I understand that it can be worrisome for the average Jane who hasn't ever been introduced to firearms and reads all of the news reports about them to see some guy on the bus wearing a loaded revolver. I don't knock the majority who just don't understand. I knock the government and the media for unfairly painting firearms as something that are dangerous (rather than helpful), criminal (rather than legal) and tools of murder (rather than tools of self defense).

    I know for a fact that local law enforcement organizations are recruiting pretty hard for new officers. Any one of us could apply for those positions, become an officer and OC a gun anywhere and everywhere we please. The only difference would be that we would have a uniform and a badge....both of which mean nothing in relationship to intent.

    I like the comparison to blacks shutting up and sitting in the back of the bus. You could make those comparisons all day long. Liberals aggressively fight for what they believe are rights all the time. They normally end in SWAT teams dressed in full armor shooting rubber pellets at them. I'm not sure of any news stories of pro gunners causing much ruckus. And I surely feel safer around any pro gunner than I do around pro-womens' rights groups or pro-retreaters.

    I know this sounds like an excuse, and to some degree it is, but if this hearing was in NOVA I would probably look forward to attending for support and just out of curiosity.

    Good luck.

    I'd like to add that I often read articles that have an anti-gun slant reference some gun marksmen who has won all sorts of awards and such. That's great. However I remember that the DC snipers were pretty well trained as well. Being well trained should not be an issue so much as intent. Intent is what breeds murder. Not how many training classes you took or how you choose to holster your firearm. I'm tired of these "expert marksmens" portraying themselves as obviously trustworthy yet everyone else is too stupid and immature. I'm also tired of people thinking that if you don't see guns that means they don't exist. I'd almost enjoy CC become illegal just so I know who I can trust and who I couldn't. In my mind the people NOT OC'ing would become the suspects. Not the people OCing.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Mr. Riddick, I would love to meet you at the Supreme Court of the United States to settle this matter.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Tell councilman Wright that I will try not to offend him by wearing my gun on my hip. If I am healthy enough I will come wearing my EBR slung over my shoulder.:what:

    Insults for holstered handguns by the Norfolk City Council???

    Fine, as you wish. Time for long gun open carry.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    vbnative73 wrote:
    snipped


    2. Learn the Law Councilman Riddick

    I'd welcome you to call Bob's and have them deliver those 9mms to you. However, I'd suggest asking them to deliver holsters as well, unless you want to be charged with brandishing a weapon. Learn the law or shut your mouth!


    snipped
    Riddick said he knows a way to ease the tension.

    "We should call Bob's Gun Shop and have him deliver eight 9-millimeters to us," he said. "We'll keep them on our desk in case we need them."


    Um, he said keep them in his desk. No holster would be required.

    Furthermore... you cannot be charged with brandishing just because you do not have a holster. You can carry the gun in a variety of ways and it would be legal.

    Perhaps you should also learn more about the law.


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    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
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    I sent an email to councilman Wright.

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    In the desk is not brandishing but it is concealing.

    Illegally obtaining handguns (call & have delivered) is both a state and federal felony.

    Not that it matters, Riddick is a complete tool.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    Riddick is the local version of Biden. Just keeps on talking until he gets himself in trouble, however, his constituents justkeep on re-electing this incompetent fool.He represents a high crime area where manyof the gun owners could notpass the scrutiny requiredto obtain a CHP nor dothey wish toOC because they obtained their weapons from questionable sources.

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    richarcm wrote:
    I do not understand how someone can be so pro 2nd Amendment and be so anti-OC.
    They can't. They only fool themselves, and try to fool others, that because they own a deer rifle and a duck gun and go hunting every year, that somehow translates into being "pro-2nd".


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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    I sent one to him as well. Told him I wont bring my gun in a holster, I'll sling it over my shoulder.
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

    The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us....There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! ...The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, Sir, let it come …………. PATRICK HENRY speech 1776

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    LEO 229 wrote:
    vbnative73 wrote:
    snipped


    2. Learn the Law Councilman Riddick

    I'd welcome you to call Bob's and have them deliver those 9mms to you. However, I'd suggest asking them to deliver holsters as well, unless you want to be charged with brandishing a weapon. Learn the law or shut your mouth!


    snipped
    Riddick said he knows a way to ease the tension.

    "We should call Bob's Gun Shop and have him deliver eight 9-millimeters to us," he said. "We'll keep them on our desk in case we need them."


    Um, he said keep them in his desk. No holster would be required.

    Furthermore... you cannot be charged with brandishing just because you do not have a holster. You can carry the gun in a variety of ways and it would be legal.

    Perhaps you should also learn more about the law.
    Umm LEO229 perhaps you should learn to read before spouting about learning the law. Councilman Riddick said "We'll keep them ON our desk in case we need them" There is a slight difference between in and on you know.

    Are you stating it would be perfectly legal for Councilman Riddick to call Bob's Gun Shop and have them to deliver 8 9-millimeters to them?

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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    Thundar wrote:
    In the desk is not brandishing but it is concealing.

    Illegally obtaining handguns (call & have delivered) is both a state and federal felony.

    Not that it matters, Riddick is a complete tool.
    Not that it matters, Riddick is an incomplete tool.

    I fixed your typo for you.:shock:


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    Regular Member sccrref's Avatar
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    If the city of Norfolk is so concerned about OC, then they should get the state legislature to change the laws so that a permit is required to OC and nopermit required to CC.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    sccrref wrote:
    If the city of Norfolk is so concerned about OC, then they should get the state legislature to change the laws so that a permit is required to OC and nopermit required to CC.
    That's the exact opposite of the intent2nd Amendment. No permit should EVER be required to OC any 'Arms'under any circumstances.

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    Campaign Veteran kimbercarrier's Avatar
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    Next we'll need a permit to address the city council. This wouldn't be a problem if the officers didn't act like idiots. Had they shown up and checked out the situation for what it was we wouldn't be going to the council again.

    I guess if people are offended by what we say we should also not use our 1st amendment right and just shut up.

  19. #19
    Campaign Veteran Dutch Uncle's Avatar
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    I read the article by Minium, as well as some of the comments underneath. Amidst the largely positive comments there are, as usual, some by a "junior psychologist" with the predictably lame analyses that would make most sensible people cringe with embarrassment for the writer. I was going to post some witty rejoinder, but decided I had better things to do with my electrons.

    I plan to be in Norfolk Tuesday night with the rest of you.

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    Lone Star Veteran DrMark's Avatar
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    While I was at the large-turnout meeting there last year, I won't be able to make this Norfolk City Council meeting.

    Best wishes for an enjoyable and productive evening.

    Mark

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    Regular Member riverrat10k's Avatar
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    Good luck tonight everyone. Wish I could be there
    Remember Peter Nap and Skidmark. Do them proud. Be active. Be well informed. ALL rights matter.

    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when you may have to back up your acts with your life."

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