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Thread: Kent PD encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    I'll try to make this quick... Yesterday after work, I went to Kent Station shopping mall to go to the Zumiez skateboard/snowboard shop to try and find a new hat for winter. OC from the back parking lot all the way to the store with no problems. As I was just opening the door to the store, 2 Kent police bicycle officers were slowly riding down the sidewalk on the other side of the driveway. They were on my weak side and didn't notice me. I thought nothing of it.

    After looking at the hats in the store for about 2 minutes, the two officers entered the store and asked to speak with me. I said "yes, no problem". Officer 1 asked me to pull my shirt over my Kimber 1911 so we could all go outside and talk. I said "I can't conceal" and his jaw dropped. It was so funny... I explained that my CPL was in my truck and I couldn't conceal. He told me, that's OKfor me to conceal now while we go talk outside, since I told him my CPL was not on my person. I told him "No, you are asking me to break the law by concealing" At this point he backed off on that subject. (The store manager who was outside and saw me walk into his store must have contacted the police, then come into the store.)

    The two officers and I went outside onto the sidewalk (me still OC'ing) and they ran my ID and we chatted while that was happening. The two officers were very friendly, asking about my Kimber and chatting while they waited for my ID check to come back. But officer 1 kept asking me to go to my truck to get my CPL so that I could come back to do my shopping so I don't scare mothers and children. I said that I wouldn't go back to my truck to get it because if I didn't find what I wanted at this one store, I'd be leaving anyway. He asked me several times to make their jobs easier and go get my CPL. I politely kept saying no, I would not, I'm well within my rights. He said he appreciated my position.

    I told him that if the store manager didn't want me back in there I'd be happy to shop somewhere else, so Officer 2 went in to ask the manager. He came out and said that the manager had no problem with me shopping there. So the 2 officers left and I went back inside to look for a hat. (never found the hat I wanted there anyway) The manager (maybe 19 years old) tried to apologize to me about the situation, I told him I understood, and gave him a pamphlet. (I had offered a pamphlet to the officers, which they wanted nothing to do with.) Overall the KPD officers were very friendly, polite, and professional. Zumiez in Kent Station should be added to the DO patronize list.

    Question, did the officers really have the right to run my ID, since I was clearly not committing a crime?
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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    To answer your question, no, they did not. Nor did they have the right to detain you while they ran it. You were illegally detained.*

    Also, after being told you had no CPL and still telling you to conceal, that officer broke the law by telling you to break the law.

    ETA: I am not a lawyer.

    *ETA again: The above red text is to remove said opinion on the illegality of the actions. I came across some information and re-evaluated the situation such that it doesn't appear anything except for the directive to conceal without a CPL was done illegally.
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    I believe this incident warrants a complaint... As far as incidents go it was mild and ended pleasently, but I would still file a complaint.

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    I concur with David. If I were you I would write up an very polite letter explaining the event and formally complain to KPD and the Kent City Attorney or City Council.

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    David.Car wrote:
    I believe this incident warrants a complaint... As far as incidents go it was mild and ended pleasently, but I would still file a complaint.
    Again I find myself in agreement with David.Car agin. That the cops overreacted and a complaint is warranted.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    I believe this incident warrants a complaint... As far as incidents go it was mild and ended pleasently, but I would still file a complaint.
    Again I find myself in agreement with David.Car agin. That the cops overreacted and a complaint is warranted.
    I also Agree with David and Bear. These guys had no business or lawful reason to contact you let alone detain you.
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    joeroket wrote:
    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    David.Car wrote:
    I believe this incident warrants a complaint... As far as incidents go it was mild and ended pleasently, but I would still file a complaint.
    Again I find myself in agreement with David.Car agin. That the cops overreacted and a complaint is warranted.
    I also Agree with David and Bear. These guys had no business or lawful reason to contact you let alone detain you.
    Or tell you to conceal without your permit.

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    Did you feel detained?

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    deanf wrote:
    Did you feel detained?
    After having to go outside to talkwith them and having to wait for them to run his ID and give it back to him, he better damn well feel detained.

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    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    David.Car wrote:
    deanf wrote:
    Did you feel detained?
    After having to go outside to talkwith them and having to wait for them to run his ID and give it back to him, he better damn well feel detained.
    +1.

    Once they take possession/control of your ID, anyone should feel detained, as there's no way you'd be allowed to leave by taking your ID back before they got a result and you probably don't want to leave without your ID, especially if it's a driver's license and you drove a vehicle.
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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Everything felt light and friendly throughout the whole time, but I did not feel as though I could leave since they had my ID. Officer 1 also said to me that I didn't look like the kind of guy they would think would start shooting.

    I tried to contact Randy Loun today to talk to him about this and also follow up with him about a letter he was going to write to Kent PD,about a previousKPD contact with me. Randy was out most of the day in court today, so I'll have to try again tomorrow.
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    Did you feel detained?
    I only ask because if you agreed to everything they REQUESTED:

    "CAN we see your ID?"
    "CAN you come outside with us?"

    . . . . then legally I don't see a problem, or a reason to complain. OP said they were friendly, polite, and professional. Doesn't sound like they intimidated him into complying with their requests.

    Personally, I would counter their opener with "Am I being detained?" If they answer yes, THEN you complain.

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    deanf wrote:
    Personally, I would counter their opener with "Am I being detained?"*
    ...And smile inside when he answers 'Absolutely, we're not here to have a party'....and listen to him explain how he knows open carry is legal, but have him change mid sentence and say it's not...
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    So I'm going to school for Criminal Justice/Law (Haven't decided between cop/lawyer) anyways: the magic question in this state is "Am I free to leave?" If the answer is no, then you are being detained or held against your will and the officer must marandize you because anything you say after that point that is incriminating can get easily dismissed by any defense lawyer.

    If he says yes then that means you have no reason or obligation to comply with his request. (Unless you're OCing in a car or something which requires a permit and have been stopped for another reason) etc.

    Disclaimer: I'm not an attorney, this is just information I've picked up from riding along with officers and getting taught by attorneys and chiefs of police dept's in my CJ classes.





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    Hey Just_a_Car, can you cite what you found that says you can be detained for OCing?

    From my understanding, they can only detain you if they think there is/was/will be a crime committed (Terry V Ohio) so just OCing isn't cause to detain.

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    just_a_car wrote:
    To answer your question, no, they did not. Nor did they have the right to detain you while they ran it. You were illegally detained.*

    Also, after being told you had no CPL and still telling you to conceal, that officer broke the law by telling you to break the law.

    ETA: I am not a lawyer.

    *ETA again: The above red text is to remove said opinion on the illegality of the actions. I came across some information and re-evaluated the situation such that it doesn't appear anything except for the directive to conceal without a CPL was done illegally.
    In Washington State there is no obligation to even carry ID, much less produce it on demand, especiallyfor an illegal stop, which this most assuredly was. The presents of a gun is not grounds to justify as stop per Casad.

  17. #17
    Regular Member just_a_car's Avatar
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    I am basing my revision above on the fact that it doesn't sound like the OP ever asked if he was being detained or if he could leave... thus, it was "merely" a social encounter.

    Once he volunteered his ID, they can run it if they wish. He could have denied them his ID if he wished.
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    FYI, I never carry ID when I OC.

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    Regular Member SpyderTattoo's Avatar
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    Maybe that will be what I do from now on. Just not carry my ID or my CPL with me if I'm OC'ing. Just carry my bank card so I can pay for my things.

    This was only the second time I've been stopped by Kent PD, I guess I wasn't thinking to ask if I was being detained. Next time I'll be sure to ask that as soon as they ask if they can "have a talk with me".
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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The presents of a gun
    WOOO!!! Gun presents!!!

    Anyways, to the OP again. You should still carry your ID, it is just easy convenience in case you need it (many stores won't run your debit/credit cards without one). Just remember you have no need to show it to a LEO when you are just out and about like you were.

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    SpyderTattoo wrote:
    Maybe that will be what I do from now on. Just not carry my ID or my CPL with me if I'm OC'ing. Just carry my bank card so I can pay for my things.

    This was only the second time I've been stopped by Kent PD, I guess I wasn't thinking to ask if I was being detained. Next time I'll be sure to ask that as soon as they ask if they can "have a talk with me".
    The trouble with a bank card and no ID is a lot of places are ow asking for ID when you use your card. No ID no purchase.

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    Bear 45/70 wrote:
    The trouble with a bank card and no ID is a lot of places are ow asking for ID when you use your card. No ID no purchase.
    I have a bank card with my photo on it. Still get asked for ID. I point to the photo on the card. It has always worked.

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    My opinion: I'll ask if I'm being detained. If the answer is yes, I'll play hardball and file complaints. If the answer is no, they just want to talk, assuming I'm not in a hurry I'll sit down and have a nice discussion with them and voluntarily produce ID, etc, as a good-will gesture.

    No ID no purchase.
    These policies are in direct violation of Visa & Mastercard regulations. Merchants are obligated under their contracts with Visa & Mastarcard to accept the signature on the back of the card as proof of ownership. They can ask for ID, but they cannot refuse to sell the item to you if you refuse.

    In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.


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    tricityguy wrote:
    My opinion: I'll ask if I'm being detained. If the answer is yes, I'll play hardball and file complaints. If the answer is no, they just want to talk, assuming I'm not in a hurry I'll sit down and have a nice discussion with them and voluntarily produce ID, etc, as a good-will gesture.

    No ID no purchase.
    These policies are in direct violation of Visa & Mastercard regulations. Merchants are obligated under their contracts with Visa & Mastarcard to accept the signature on the back of the card as proof of ownership. They can ask for ID, but they cannot refuse to sell the item to you if you refuse.

    In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
    Hell, if there is a teller at my bank that doesn't know me, they ask for ID if some teller that knows me is to busy to vouch for me. So how the hell does asking for ID do anything but protect my account?

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    In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
    I've been fighting this battle for 10 years, and believe me, the credit card companies are toothless to enforce their own rules. I've made multiple complaints, and never been able to get a merchant to change their procedure.

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