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Kent PD encounter

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Bear 45/70

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SpyderTattoo wrote:
Maybe that will be what I do from now on. Just not carry my ID or my CPL with me if I'm OC'ing. Just carry my bank card so I can pay for my things.

This was only the second time I've been stopped by Kent PD, I guess I wasn't thinking to ask if I was being detained. Next time I'll be sure to ask that as soon as they ask if they can "have a talk with me".
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The trouble with a bank card and no ID is a lot of places are ow asking for ID when you use your card. No ID no purchase.
 
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bcp

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
The trouble with a bank card and no ID is a lot of places are ow asking for ID when you use your card. No ID no purchase.
Click to expand...

I have a bank card with my photo on it. Still get asked for ID. I point to the photo on the card. It has always worked.

Bruce
 
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tricityguy

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My opinion: I'll ask if I'm being detained. If the answer is yes, I'll play hardball and file complaints. If the answer is no, they just want to talk, assuming I'm not in a hurry I'll sit down and have a nice discussion with them and voluntarily produce ID, etc, as a good-will gesture.

No ID no purchase.
Click to expand...
These policies are in direct violation of Visa & Mastercard regulations. Merchants are obligated under their contracts with Visa & Mastarcard to accept the signature on the back of the card as proof of ownership. They can ask for ID, but they cannot refuse to sell the item to you if you refuse.

In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
 
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Bear 45/70

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tricityguy wrote:
My opinion: I'll ask if I'm being detained. If the answer is yes, I'll play hardball and file complaints. If the answer is no, they just want to talk, assuming I'm not in a hurry I'll sit down and have a nice discussion with them and voluntarily produce ID, etc, as a good-will gesture.

No ID no purchase.
Click to expand...
These policies are in direct violation of Visa & Mastercard regulations. Merchants are obligated under their contracts with Visa & Mastarcard to accept the signature on the back of the card as proof of ownership. They can ask for ID, but they cannot refuse to sell the item to you if you refuse.

In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
Click to expand...
Hell, if there is a teller at my bank that doesn't know me, they ask for ID if some teller that knows me is to busy to vouch for me. So how the hell does asking for ID do anything but protect my account?
 
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deanf

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In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
Click to expand...

I've been fighting this battle for 10 years, and believe me, the credit card companies are toothless to enforce their own rules. I've made multiple complaints, and never been able to get a merchant to change their procedure.
 
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Bear 45/70

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deanf wrote:
In practice, many merchants will refuse to sell to you without ID, however, you can file a complaint with Visa and/or Mastercard, and that merchant will quickly change their tune or risk being unable to accept credit cards anymore.
Click to expand...

I've been fighting this battle for 10 years, and believe me, the credit card companies are toothless to enforce their own rules. I've made multiple complaints, and never been able to get a merchant to change their procedure.
Click to expand...
Why would you want to? TheID requirementis to protect you.
 
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arms_libertas

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David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Why would you want to? TheID requirementis to protect you.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Credit card has a name on it... Usually that is it. How do you verify a name without a PHOTO ID? You can't.
Click to expand...

I specifically don't sign my name on the card, I put "See ID" and force the issue (eventhough I know it's against the card company's policies). If you're following the policies and procedures of the card companies to the "T", you would immediately sign the card when you receive it andsimplyreceiving it in the mailis the validation that the signature is yours. If someone uses it who cannot sign the same signature, then they are supposed to deny the sale. The practicedoesn't work so well when you introduce mail & identity theft, which is why I force the issue.

In the end it's just another individual preference though...
 
just_a_car

just_a_car

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arms_libertas wrote:
David.Car wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:
Why would you want to? TheID requirementis to protect you.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Credit card has a name on it... Usually that is it. How do you verify a name without a PHOTO ID? You can't.
Click to expand...

I specifically don't sign my name on the card, I put "See ID" and force the issue (eventhough I know it's against the card company's policies). If you're following the policies and procedures of the card companies to the "T", you would immediately sign the card when you receive it andsimplyreceiving it in the mailis the validation that the signature is yours. If someone uses it who cannot sign the same signature, then they are supposed to deny the sale. The practicedoesn't work so well when you introduce mail & identity theft, which is why I force the issue.

In the end it's just another individual preference though...
Click to expand...
I do something similar, but because the card says "Not valid unless signed" you can have them refuse to process your card without the signature. So, I sign it and next to the signature put "See Picture ID". That way it's valid and the teller's reminded to ask for ID.
 
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tricityguy

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Bear: I wasn't talking about your bank. I'd expect to show ID to perform a transaction there. Just not to buy some random piece of junk in a store with a credit card.

deanf: Really? I've never filed a complaint myself but have heard good results from others.

As for why you wouldn't want your ID checked: Privacy and/or identity theft. A person can do a lot of damage to your identity with an address & driver's license number and not all cashiers are good, honest people. Worse, many businesses (Target is one of them) have begun swiping your license through a card reader. I don't know about you, but I don't want all of the information on my driver's license stored in Target's databases. I won't hand my ID over to just anyone and, yeah, I definitely put store cashiers in the "just anyone" category.

Checking ID on card use will only stop a thief if I lose my card. If I do lose my card, I'm going to call my bank right away, and further, I'm not liable for charges in this event. So why would I risk having my identity stolen or information about me put into some company's database for God knows what purpose? As it is, I almost always use cash these days, anyway, so it's a non-issue for me...
 
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adamsesq

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Remember too that if you DON'T sign the card and someone else does get your card, signs your name with their signature (even over the top of your "See ID"), then goes off and uses your card if the next cashier only does what they are required and compares signatures they are going to find the charge acceptable... And the CC company could theoretically stick you for the charge for allowing that to happen by not signing the card immediately as you agreed to in your agreement with them.

-adamsesq
 
amlevin

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Kildars wrote:
So I'm going to school for Criminal Justice/Law------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the officer must marandize you
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By the time you finish your studies you will know that it is spelled "Mirandize"

:D:D:D (Just having some fun with you)
 
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Bear 45/70

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tricityguy wrote:
Bear: I wasn't talking about your bank. I'd expect to show ID to perform a transaction there. Just not to buy some random piece of junk in a store with a credit card.

deanf: Really? I've never filed a complaint myself but have heard good results from others.

As for why you wouldn't want your ID checked: Privacy and/or identity theft. A person can do a lot of damage to your identity with an address & driver's license number and not all cashiers are good, honest people. Worse, many businesses (Target is one of them) have begun swiping your license through a card reader. I don't know about you, but I don't want all of the information on my driver's license stored in Target's databases. I won't hand my ID over to just anyone and, yeah, I definitely put store cashiers in the "just anyone" category.

Checking ID on card use will only stop a thief if I lose my card. If I do lose my card, I'm going to call my bank right away, and further, I'm not liable for charges in this event. So why would I risk having my identity stolen or information about me put into some company's database for God knows what purpose? As it is, I almost always use cash these days, anyway, so it's a non-issue for me...
Click to expand...

The only time I ge ID check at my bank is when a new teller shows up Otherwise never.

There is a reason I only have one credit card, but two debit cards. I use the credit card only for emergencies. The debit cards, I prefer the merchant checks my ID to make sure it is me. To do otherwise puts my moneyat risk.
 
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Trigger Dr

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Bear 45/70 wrote:
just_a_car wrote:
To answer your question, no, they did not. Nor did they have the right to detain you while they ran it. You were illegally detained.*

Also, after being told you had no CPL and still telling you to conceal, that officer broke the law by telling you to break the law.

ETA: I am not a lawyer.

*ETA again: The above red text is to remove said opinion on the illegality of the actions. I came across some information and re-evaluated the situation such that it doesn't appear anything except for the directive to conceal without a CPL was done illegally.
Click to expand...
In Washington State there is no obligation to even carry ID, much less produce it on demand, especiallyfor an illegal stop, which this most assuredly was. The presents of a gun is not grounds to justify as stop per Casad.
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A mere report of a man with a gun is not grounds for a Terry stop. Florida v. J.L.,529 U.S, 266 (2000). Americans cannot be required to carry and produce identification credentials on demand to the police. Kolender v. Lawson, 461 U.S. 352 (1983). Washington does not have a "stop and ID" statute, the stop must be limited to situations where RAS exists of a crime, and further, stop subject's statement of his name satisfies the ID requirement as Kolender, Disccussed supra, has not been overruled. Hiibel v.Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004). Even where state has established a duty to carry a license for some activity, absent RAS for the stop, the license cannot be demanded. State v Peters, 2008 WL2185754 (Wis. App.Idist. 2008) (driver of vehicle has no duty to produce drivers license absent RAS (citing Hiibel). Law enforcement officers seizing persons for refusal to show identification are "not entitled to dismissal of [42USC 1983 claims] based on qualified immunity." Stuffelbeam v. Harris, 521 F.3rd 884, 889 (8th Cir.2008)
 
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deanf

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Why would you want to? TheID requirementis to protect you.
Click to expand...

Because I want merchants to follow the rules, and the rules of Merchant Deposit Agreements state that merchants cannot refuse a credit card purchase if the countersignature on the sales draft matches the signature on the pre-signed credit card.

The ID requirement is to protect the merchant, even though, in most cases, as long as they follow the rules, they are covered for all but a token amount of a fraud loss, as is the consumer.
 
SpyderTattoo

SpyderTattoo

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Maybe all this ID and credit card stuff should be on another thread, since my OP was about a Kent PD stop, not about credit card and ID theft...
 
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Kildars

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amlevin wrote:
Kildars wrote:
So I'm going to school for Criminal Justice/Law------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the officer must marandize you
Click to expand...

By the time you finish your studies you will know that it is spelled "Mirandize"

:D:D:D (Just having some fun with you)
Click to expand...
Was typing on my LG dare ;). Apologies. You're right though, my bad!
 
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sv_libertarian

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I can't remember the last time I was asked for ID on my debit card. Oh yeah, it was the Subway inside Wal Mart in Lacey. I'm a regular at several places in Oly, and the nature of my job and the places it takes me makes me known in a lot of other places in Thurston County.

Self check out lines never ask for ID!
 
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David.Car

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sv_libertarian wrote:
Self check out lines never ask for ID!
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I hate those things. They never scan properly, they keep yelling at you to place the item in a bag, even if it is already in the bag. If you buy an R rated movie you still have to wait for someone to notice you and come over and enter a code...

Those machines suck.
 
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